Nationalism - as Hitler saw it...

[Sista Soldjah]

"The question of the 'nationalism' of a people is, among other things, primarily a question of creating healthy social conditions as a foundation for the possibility of educating the individual. For only those who through school and upbringing learn to know the cultural, economic, but above all the political, greatness of their own fatherland can and will achieve the inner pride in the privilege of being a member of such a people. And I can fight only for something that I love, love only what I respect, and respect only what I least know" (Mein Kampf)

Ok - where did he go wrong?

1. "creating healthy social conditions"..."to educate the individual" - all conditions educate...what is healthy or unhealthy is a matter of perception...therefore, you could say, in essence that all social conditions educate. - An assumption here is that he had a belief about 'healthy' really meant and of course it was something very different...

2. "only those who through school and upbringing learn..." - what rubbish - Whose schooling?, Whose upbringing?...We are also influenced in some way by our schooling and if taught to critically think, analyse, evaluate etc (and this does not necessarily need to be taught as part of schooling - if we take his words literally) we can face the challenges of our communities, our life...what we need here is a 'valuing of diversity' and a 'respect for difference'..and then, without question we will achieve will achieve "the inner pride in the privilege of being a member of such a people"...

3. "...I can fight only for something that I love, love only what I respect, and respect only what I least know" - problem here is that he wants to 'fight'...agressive emphasis...why so angry?...how can one 'respect what they least know'?...one can appreciate what they least know and strive to know more...then, by doing so, they can strive to respect...

...comments???...

Cheers
Sista Soldjah

[Jez]

The problem is people. Or persons who define a word, words or paragraph to their personal reading.

e.g. "Go sort that lad out. He's just spat at me"

To a policeman. Caution him.

To a different police man. Arrest him.

Ok, now to.. say, R.Heydrich. Shoot him and deport his family to a camp.


It went wrong when the chain of command was broken and sector/department heads were their own Fuhrer's with no scrutiny from others.

It is the definition of a request to the individual who takes it, to how extreme it is executed.

Remember this. The three different results of the origional request posted above will all have had the people who carried it out, saying the same;

"job done."

Regards, Jez

[Sista Soldjah]

I do agree with you about semantics and ones interpretation of words (and further more actions that carry out the interpretation)...

...and even when I read AH's words (in English and therefore interpreted at another level)...a natural bias is evident in my interpretation...
...eg. assumption about aggressive word...

...so a reading of something in a context (in my, case my socio-cultural context) I am seeking to make meaning and do this with various knowledges and beliefs...

...but, sometimes 'words' are more than what we as individuals make of them...sometimes the interpretations are the same or very similar for the majority (dominant reading)...Why else was Mein Kampf so popular in Germany when it was published?

...tell me, how do you interpret the paragraph? ...what is your 'reading' of it?...and of course, what values, beleifs and assumptions to you bring to your reading of it?

...I look forward to your response...

Cheers
Sista Soldjah

[Jez]

All i know sista is that one lad can read a paragraph from a book and feel chilled and fulfilled.

Another man can read the same paragraph and strap on a vest of semtex or fly a Boeing into a high rise building.

These are scary days where the extremism of a few cranks can f.uck up a world.

Regards, Jez

[Sista Soldjah]

it's not the few cranks, Jez, it's 'the many'...and it's the blinkers that the rest of the world have one when 'the many' have control in any country...where there is no debate, no intellectualising, no 'valuing of difference', no 'respect for diversity'...It's when countries like this 'brainwash' their children...that foster xenophobia and prejudice...

...but, Jez - violence is not the answer - perhaps there is no answer -

Mankind has always been at war - perhaps the concept of 'peace' is all BS...perhaps 'conflict' (in a violent sense) will never be minimised - Just look in ones own backyard - in our homes - e.g. domestic violence, abuse to children, murder and assault...perhaps these things can never be halted...as much a I would strive to try (like many others)...

Cheers from Down Under (a people who love their sport and care perhaps little for the abuses in the rest of the world - a bit harsh, I know, but Aussies are a pretty apathetic bunch - why wouldn't we be - we live in the best country in the world, have never had a civil war - and we love our sport!!!! - we've got it all!!!!)

Sista Soldjah

[Jez]

How when this is daily item Sista?

Even our Judicial system encourages our people getting 'Beasted' with their sentences to these animals.

Please excuse me if i shout loud to warn my kids.


Saudi student tortured girl in flat

A Saudi student who imprisoned and tortured a pregnant teenager in his luxury south-east London apartment has been jailed for five years.
Sammy Shadukhi, 22, tied the girl up, beat and whipped her and forced her to stand through the night, in the month she was trapped at his Rotherhithe flat.

During the trial it was alleged that Saudi embassy officials tried to bribe the girl into dropping the charges against Shadukhi, whose father is a retired Saudi official.

The Foreign Office says it is now looking into the allegations.

The girl's ordeal began when Shadukhi invited her into his waterfront apartment in January 2002, Inner London Crown Court heard.

He cut off the phone, refused to let her leave and held a knife to her throat and threatened to kill her.

These were deeply unpleasant crimes for which you have shown no remorse

Judge Jonathan van der Werff
At times he would force her head into a bucket of hot water telling her: "This is the last day of your life. You don't deserve to live. I have got to get rid of you."

The terrified 17-year-old finally escaped when Shadukhi went off to his English language class after threatening to "slaughter her like a sheep".

She climbed out of the second floor window and onto a drainpipe, before slipping and falling 60 feet onto the Thames foreshore.

The fall broke her back, leg and ankle. She lay there for hours until neighbours heard her cries for help.

The girl, who can not be named for legal reasons, was so afraid the fall had damaged her unborn child she had an abortion five months into the pregnancy.

Judge recommends deportation

Shadukhi was convicted of sample counts of false imprisonment, making threats to kill and causing actual bodily harm, at Inner London Crown Court on Friday.

He was cleared of rape and causing grievous bodily harm with intent.

The court heard he was the son of an affluent man who had recently retired from Saudi Arabia's Ministry of the Interior.

Judge Jonathan van der Werff recommended he be deported once he had served his sentence.

He told Shadukhi: "You kept her under your control at all times and you subjected her to various sorts of torture... tying her up with wire and Sellotape and keeping her like that for long periods.

We will prosecute offenders no matter how short a time they may have been in the United Kingdom

Detective Inspector Alan Baxter
"It was a terrible time for her, a period of her life she will never be able to forget."

He added: "These were deeply unpleasant crimes for which you have shown no remorse."

Witnesses were called from as far afield as Saudi Arabia and Australia to testify.

After the sentencing Detective Inspector Alan Baxter said: "This case is significant.

"It clearly demonstrates the determination of the Metropolitan Police and Crown Prosecution Service to prosecute offenders no matter how short a time they may have been in the United Kingdom."


Rule Brittania.... not.


Jez

[Jez]

Quote Sista-

Cheers from Down Under (a people who love their sport and care perhaps little for the abuses in the rest of the world - a bit harsh, I know, but Aussies are a pretty apathetic bunch - why wouldn't we be - we live in the best country in the world, have never had a civil war - and we love our sport!!!! - we've got it all!!!!)

I bet Rhodesia had it all too except their indiginous population was higher than yours that you suppresed.

I reckon i could love my sport, and little less for the abuses of what is happening in GB and the World if my government just dealt free alchohol to the Aborigonal population to keep them pissed,stood in parks and battering each other all day so to keep them quiet.

I reckon you're a puppet squarking PC'ness.

How smug for you.

Unfortunatly i used to live in Oz so i know the truth.

Hypocrite.

Regards, Jez.

[Jez]

Time for bed Sista.

Regards, Jez

[jpatterson]

Dear Sista,
I believe that Herr Hitler, in rerferring to "creating healthy social conditions, was alluding to his intentions of Ethnic Cleansing in his future Germany.
I guess the values, beliefs and assumptions that I carry as baggage through life are good old fashioned U.S.A. Catholic!?!

[Sista Soldjah]

Jez:

I'm surprised by your comments - so who do you think is 'pulling my strings'?...you say you lived in Oz - well then what part of the country did you hail from - because where I am - we don't hand out "alchohol to the Aborigonal population to keep them pissed,stood in parks and battering each other all day so to keep them quiet"...perhaps you lived here pre-1973??
...I was born and raised in a remote north western community - went to school with fair dinkum Aborigines - played, cried and laughed with them...I was raised to treat people as you would have them treat you...and this had nothing to do with religion - there was no religion in my childhood home...

...much is changing in relation to Indigenous issues here in this country...there is no apartheid, education is for all, health care is for all and welfare (social security) is for all...(Now I'm not blind to the fact that things aren't perfect - there is still much to do - and people are trying)...
....at any rate you suppose too much...to call me a hypocite is unwarranted...

...how quickly you shoot from the hip! ...and how unfairly you draw conclusions!...not to mention how little you know of Aussie humour...my comments when signing off were 'tongue in cheek'...

But, I am certain that there is much we can discuss and much we will argue...so keep it coming, Jez...don't hold back - say what you truly mean and don't soften it with BS...

Cheers
Sista Soldjah

[sid guttridge]

Hi Sister Soldjah,

The main problem is with the definition of the word "Fatherland".

Hitler's "Fatherland" included some German-populated territory of most of his neighbours. By a mixture of good judgement, a plausible case and raw intimidation, he got almost all of this without fighting during the late 1930s.

However, Hitler's "Fatherland" was not a territorial constant. Its "Volk" required more "Lebensaraum". This was to be taken off his eastern neighbours by brute force. He began this in Bohemia-Moravia in March 1939.

This was all foreshadowed in Mein Kampf.

Basically, if you want to know where Hitler went wrong, read all of Mein Kampf. Simply looking at a selected quotation isn't enough.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Sista Soldjah]

Agree with you Sid - am reading all of mein Kampf - and getting through it slowly...my comments were simply an attempt to extract some insights of forum members - some thoughts...the paragrph quoted above just jumped out at me...kinda jolted the emotions a little...

...I do wonder however, how much is lost in translation?...How much is altered in translation (German to English that is)...

Cheers
Sista Soldjah

[Groscurth]

Jezz is as ignorant ass the mass that followed AH.
Regard his posts, rather extreme?
I liked the post off Wurger with the cartoon off AH Gun in his mouth),
" Follow you leaders".
I can give hundreds off equal examples where the US gov violates here own laws and (off course) the Geneva conventions or the EU court in Stasbourgh for human rights.
Iff this continues I'll be forced to give examples off Guantanomo bay, hatred and non respect off Arabs in the US (the new blacks) etc.
I think the US is a good partner in violating all sorts off human rights with Russia, China and can't be regarded ass a democratic state anymore.
But I know Mr extreme right Jezz is quite a fan off Bush and hates democracy (look at his agressive replies on jokes, off course he doesn't understand humor).

I have pitty with poor people like this, world is much better with a laugh.

Good night,
Enjoy your weekend


A PS on sunday:

Off course there is much more sort off a democracy in the US than in China or the new militar-corupt Russsian Republic. But feel angry about what the self called "land off the free" is doing now and the almost complete absence off critical press.
I don't like countries where the press agrees for 95% with his gov.
How is this possible, in France you've a liberal-conservative and a progressive (center-left) press in the quality papers (ex. Le Monde and Libération).
In Holland you've "De Volkskrant" wich attacks all kind off govs there (Purple, Conservative or others)
In England "the Indepedent" (Mr. Fisks articles are translated in Spanish in El Pais, in French in Libération and in Dutch "Volkskrant" in the Netherlands and in Flanders "De Morgen"

Can someone give me the name off a critical press in the US (Critical on US, EU etc..)
No not Newsweek or Time Mag., stopped buying them after 12 years in 2000.

Thank's

I know, I am writing off Topic.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Groscurth,

I think your reference to the French press was ill chosen. A centre-left press is not an independent press, it is a centre-left press. It is only in opposition to the government because the government is right of centre. The French press is very much an establishment poodle in many areas, colluding to hide the personal indiscretions of presidents, prime ministers and mayors. Its failure is reflected in the high level and extraordinary brazeness of public corruption in France.

As a matter of interest, which French paper was so independent as to come out in favour of joining the US war on Iraq?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Groscurth]

Sid says:
As a matter of interest, which French paper was so independent as to come out in favour of joining the US war on Iraq?

Gladly they kept an independent regard instead off the non critical US papers that walked with trumpets in the traces off their "leader".
The lack off any serious critical views is unique in Western civilasation.
Even youre infected with this virus by posting that a center left or center right press is not independent. I'll explain "independent"

There is no such thing as an independent press for the US-papers, this is the same. Wall Street Journal is seen as a neoconservative (or republican press), ass the majority off a press in the hands off two conglomerates (Fox News, Rupert Murdoch) wich are friends att home on the Bush ranch.

Glad we know the political base from our press and we are not that naiive ass a US-citizen that thinks that a critical view can be seen in the matter off joining the US-view. Newspapers have allways a left or a right approach. People can find good examples in many contries. The people that say from themselves that they have "a real independent press" mostly come frome countries were there is none (Cuba, N.Korea, Russia, the US, Iraq etc.)The origins are different: dictatorship, corruption, or ollipoly (greek term, Monopoly=1, Ollipoly=2,3..few)

Sadly for you, things don't work like this.
Have you read some foreign press in your life? People ass Noam Chomsky (still a US-citizen) speak completely different than you in his reports off society, "human rights" and the press in the uS.
For me, he is a critic because he just don't copy the easy mass-view.

For the French press, I think they're very critic about there own leadership, but like the majority off EU citizens (even in pro-war countries like Holland or Spain were the majority off the citizens have an other view than their gov's) they've choosen to stay far away from the plunderwar (Oil stealing),off course some off them for their own oil interests (like the French).

Iff someone asks me to help destroy my own oilinterests, I would be foolish to help him. All all oil or rebuilding contacts are for people like Cheney and other extreme right republicans (even Powell is seen as not enough to the right by people like Richard Pearl and other Rumsfelds).
By the way do you know names off EU ministers in equal positions, just to see)
And off course, people here don't like a war that has not the UN-blessing.
Placing Bush ath the same level off legality ass Hitler and other (even choosen by a "democratic"hmm hmm Florida recount, form off state).

I read presses from a lot off countries:
De Standaard, De Morgen, Le Soir in Belgium
De Volkskrant from Holland
Le Monde, Libération and the more academic and specialised Le Nouvel Observateur in France.
F. Algemeine in Germany.
Translated articles from El Pais , Spain
Sometimes the Guardian or The Indendent when I am in London.

After reading Newsweek and Time Mag, I stopped reading those 2 in 2001 (after 12!!!!years) because off the complete lack off any critical view one international matters. I liked those papers during 10 years but 2000 and
2001 showed an evolution to a more "Republican attitude "in the look on international politics. They allso made big mistakes as making former French president Giscard a minister in Chiracs gov.while he was just Chairman off the EU-Convention and making Shröder a homosexuel (just at the time he started anoying Georgie-boy) and so on...
It is like that even thinking about having a problem in the Middle East, Irak, EU., Russia and a lot off other countries makes you a crimanal or guilty off treasury.
I think the country with the poorest press in Western Civilasition is the US.
And not France.
And people can't blame me that I say this because I am French.
I am not, but I lived their many times for the job, as in germany or Austria.

Greetings