I've resently been researching a paper on the Irish Republican Army and came across a passage in a book intitled "The IRA: History" by Coogan about the Gestopo or SS trying to recurit IRA bombers and fighters, could someone confirm if this is true or just speculation.
-darkertomcat
IRA and Germany in WW2
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darkertomcat
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C. Udentz
IRA and Germany in WW2
Is this personal research, or a school/college project?
C. Udentz.
C. Udentz.
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C. Udentz
IRA and Germany in WW2
Further to my previous post. Yes there were some Republican Irish in the pay/service of Germany. But not with the Gestapo. It was another agency.
C. Udentz.
C. Udentz.
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sid guttridge
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Hi Darkertomcat,
I understand that in the early war years the IRA was having internal ideological arguments over whether it was more a nationalist or a socialist organisation. The battle of Stalingrad decided that socialism was to be ascendant globally, so the IRA has had a radical socialist ideology ever since.
Cheers,
Sid.
I understand that in the early war years the IRA was having internal ideological arguments over whether it was more a nationalist or a socialist organisation. The battle of Stalingrad decided that socialism was to be ascendant globally, so the IRA has had a radical socialist ideology ever since.
Cheers,
Sid.
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C. Udentz
IRA and Germany in WW2
Hello Darkertomcat,
The contacts between the IRA and Germany were primary conducted by the Abwehr (German Military Intelligence) and to a far lesser extent, by the SD (SS Security Service).
There was pro-German support in Eire and Irish diplomats were sympathetic to the German cause and offered to assist their German counterparts in undermining the English.
The Abwehr did recruit members of the IRA for espionage in the UK, and also had agents in Ireland. The extent of their activities is still classified both in Eire and Britain. But their efforts came to nothing since the Irish government at the time feared a British backlash, and even invasion, and thus clamped down on IRA activity.
But one thing is certain the IRA were pro-Nazi at that time. But the Germans eventually lost interest as their top agent in Ireland decided that they (IRA) were too unreliable.
C. Udentz.
The contacts between the IRA and Germany were primary conducted by the Abwehr (German Military Intelligence) and to a far lesser extent, by the SD (SS Security Service).
There was pro-German support in Eire and Irish diplomats were sympathetic to the German cause and offered to assist their German counterparts in undermining the English.
The Abwehr did recruit members of the IRA for espionage in the UK, and also had agents in Ireland. The extent of their activities is still classified both in Eire and Britain. But their efforts came to nothing since the Irish government at the time feared a British backlash, and even invasion, and thus clamped down on IRA activity.
But one thing is certain the IRA were pro-Nazi at that time. But the Germans eventually lost interest as their top agent in Ireland decided that they (IRA) were too unreliable.
C. Udentz.
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C. Udentz
IRA and Germany in WW2
Hello Sid,
I find no evidence that the battle of Stalingrad had any significant impact on the politics of Irish Republicanism.
Nationalism and religion (i.e. cultural belief) is the driving force behind their determinism.
Like it or not, they were pro-German in attitude, and many may still be.
But the function was to undermine their perceived enemy - England - in
time of war.
Best regards,
C. Udentz.
I find no evidence that the battle of Stalingrad had any significant impact on the politics of Irish Republicanism.
Nationalism and religion (i.e. cultural belief) is the driving force behind their determinism.
Like it or not, they were pro-German in attitude, and many may still be.
But the function was to undermine their perceived enemy - England - in
time of war.
Best regards,
C. Udentz.
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sid guttridge
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Hi Cal,
I agree that the IRA's development was based on the fundamental goal of driving the UK from Ireland completely.
However, I think you will find that they have been very pragmatic about it over the years. Although the IRA is (almost) exclusively based in the Roman Catholic community, the organisation itself has long been an avowedly socialist one without formal religious affiliation. The library the IRA prisoners built up in the Maze was full of left wing political tracts, not religious studies. The support Sinn Fein enjoys amongst some British Labour MPs also tells us where it lies on the political spectrum.
Cheers,
Sid.
I agree that the IRA's development was based on the fundamental goal of driving the UK from Ireland completely.
However, I think you will find that they have been very pragmatic about it over the years. Although the IRA is (almost) exclusively based in the Roman Catholic community, the organisation itself has long been an avowedly socialist one without formal religious affiliation. The library the IRA prisoners built up in the Maze was full of left wing political tracts, not religious studies. The support Sinn Fein enjoys amongst some British Labour MPs also tells us where it lies on the political spectrum.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Hello Sid,
I'don't find anything strange in IRA attitudines. The Italian fascism purposes (not the Nazi ones) were to fight the British both as nationalist and socialist, being the British conservative party both a nationalist and class enemy (and a confession one too against the Catholic Church). The activities of the Bandera Irlandesa during the Spaish Civil War confirm this 360° ideal.
Bye EC (and Up the Republic)
.
I'don't find anything strange in IRA attitudines. The Italian fascism purposes (not the Nazi ones) were to fight the British both as nationalist and socialist, being the British conservative party both a nationalist and class enemy (and a confession one too against the Catholic Church). The activities of the Bandera Irlandesa during the Spaish Civil War confirm this 360° ideal.
Bye EC (and Up the Republic)
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sid guttridge
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Hi Enrico,
Hitory teaches us that it is perfectly possible to be both nationalist and socialist (although internationalists of the left wouldn't agree).
However, in becoming socialist the IRA made a conscious break with the "priest-ridden", Roman Catholic, nationalist, Eire regime of Devalera. One might have thought this would have had some appeal to the Protestants of Northern Ireland, but they were equally tied to the intolerance of their own religion.
Cheers,
Sid.
Hitory teaches us that it is perfectly possible to be both nationalist and socialist (although internationalists of the left wouldn't agree).
However, in becoming socialist the IRA made a conscious break with the "priest-ridden", Roman Catholic, nationalist, Eire regime of Devalera. One might have thought this would have had some appeal to the Protestants of Northern Ireland, but they were equally tied to the intolerance of their own religion.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Hello Sid, it's a pleasure to meet you again.
I think that ther's an historical gap in the actual versions of XX Century developments.
The Catholic church social program of the first twenty yaers of that time was much more radical than the conventional idea we have got today.
In a crude but effective way I can quote this classic sentence of the Italian "Biennio rosso" (1919-1920) which stormed Italy b e f o r e the Fascist boom (that started since Autumn 1920, when the Fascist movment members become, within less than two mounths, starting from some hundreds concentred mainly in the town of Milan many tens of thousand throught all Italy) : "Meglio i rossi dei bianchi, I primi dicono di voler prendere la terra, i secondi la occupano direttamente" (the reds are better than the whites. The first declare they are going to occupy the lands; the others catch them by force directly and stop".
As a matter of fact the Leghe bianche of Giovanni Miglioli, a very famous catholic activist, were the most ferocious in the country civil war fought then between little land owners and peasants without land (day labourers)* while the socialist liked great meetings, great speeches but little more, except a petty violence of no effective value and politically ruinous.
The original IRA program of the 1916 revolt against the British was so both a "socialist" (in the actual, not too much correct meaning of the world) and a confessional one. Something like some movements of Latin America which were and are able to put toghether in a curious but effective way the Lord and the revolution.
I think that in Germany, between the wars, there was too something like this same phenomena. In Austria, then, the Catholic Dolfuss movement had, officially, the purpose to unite the doctrine of the Church with the social progress and the rights of the workers against the capitalistic powers (they were then able to use artillery fire against the houses of the red ring in Wien but this is an other matter, as the conservative right wing of the Austrian government coalition had, at least, prevailed, but Dolfuss principles - he was an admirer and a great family friend of Mussolini, were considered fascist by him and his entourage.
By the political way I think that the only, autentic social dinosaur in Europe during the Thirties was the Conservative party in UK and that the Second World War may be considerer (not only, of course, but at least a little) a revolutionary, social war against the exploiters (British) and their masters (the old gang of the Conservatives).
Bye EC
* The northern big land owners had escaped or sold everything to the hard, new middle class of the mezzadri (métayer) who were the real backbone of the Fascism movement in Italy until 1936 and who fled, mostly, with all their great power of violence and strenght, to the partisans only during the Summer of 1944 as a consequence of the idiotic and brutal German requisitions ordered in July and Aug. 1944 in sight of the imminent loss of France and Poland. The southern rich landowners used their own militias (mafia included) to control the situation.
I think that ther's an historical gap in the actual versions of XX Century developments.
The Catholic church social program of the first twenty yaers of that time was much more radical than the conventional idea we have got today.
In a crude but effective way I can quote this classic sentence of the Italian "Biennio rosso" (1919-1920) which stormed Italy b e f o r e the Fascist boom (that started since Autumn 1920, when the Fascist movment members become, within less than two mounths, starting from some hundreds concentred mainly in the town of Milan many tens of thousand throught all Italy) : "Meglio i rossi dei bianchi, I primi dicono di voler prendere la terra, i secondi la occupano direttamente" (the reds are better than the whites. The first declare they are going to occupy the lands; the others catch them by force directly and stop".
As a matter of fact the Leghe bianche of Giovanni Miglioli, a very famous catholic activist, were the most ferocious in the country civil war fought then between little land owners and peasants without land (day labourers)* while the socialist liked great meetings, great speeches but little more, except a petty violence of no effective value and politically ruinous.
The original IRA program of the 1916 revolt against the British was so both a "socialist" (in the actual, not too much correct meaning of the world) and a confessional one. Something like some movements of Latin America which were and are able to put toghether in a curious but effective way the Lord and the revolution.
I think that in Germany, between the wars, there was too something like this same phenomena. In Austria, then, the Catholic Dolfuss movement had, officially, the purpose to unite the doctrine of the Church with the social progress and the rights of the workers against the capitalistic powers (they were then able to use artillery fire against the houses of the red ring in Wien but this is an other matter, as the conservative right wing of the Austrian government coalition had, at least, prevailed, but Dolfuss principles - he was an admirer and a great family friend of Mussolini, were considered fascist by him and his entourage.
By the political way I think that the only, autentic social dinosaur in Europe during the Thirties was the Conservative party in UK and that the Second World War may be considerer (not only, of course, but at least a little) a revolutionary, social war against the exploiters (British) and their masters (the old gang of the Conservatives).
Bye EC
* The northern big land owners had escaped or sold everything to the hard, new middle class of the mezzadri (métayer) who were the real backbone of the Fascism movement in Italy until 1936 and who fled, mostly, with all their great power of violence and strenght, to the partisans only during the Summer of 1944 as a consequence of the idiotic and brutal German requisitions ordered in July and Aug. 1944 in sight of the imminent loss of France and Poland. The southern rich landowners used their own militias (mafia included) to control the situation.
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darkertomcat
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ian mc allister
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At the begining of 1939 the IRA leadership decided to launch a bombing
campaign on England . There were many bombings and some loss of
life and many IRA men were arrested both in England and Ireland .
When WW2 started there had already been contact between the abwehr
and the IRA .
In august 1940 the IRA leader Sean Russell and another IRA man Frank
Ryan sailed to Ireland on a u-boat but off the coast of galway Sean
Russell died and the u-boat returned to base without landing Ryan . The
exact nature of the mission is unknown as files were never released to
the public but it is known that Russell had been trained in sabotage by
the Germans .
Russell is reported to have died of a perforated ulcer although I have
read that the Germans believed he was poisoned by Ryan as the two
men did not like each other . This is probably the reason Ryan was not
landed on his own and did not carry out a similar mission later in the
war .
With regard to politics the IRA leadership had always been split since
it's creation between the traditionalists and the socialists . Russell was
a traditionalist and was only interested in getting the British out of
Ireland and Ryan was a socialist who had fought in the Spanish Civil
War against Franco and was a diehard anti Nazi .
It is interesting to note that the German in charge of Irish affairs at the
foreign office was SS Standartenfuhrer Edmund veesenmayer who was
regarded as a specialist in overthrowing goverments so this has led
to speculation over the u-boat mission .
Regards , Ian .
campaign on England . There were many bombings and some loss of
life and many IRA men were arrested both in England and Ireland .
When WW2 started there had already been contact between the abwehr
and the IRA .
In august 1940 the IRA leader Sean Russell and another IRA man Frank
Ryan sailed to Ireland on a u-boat but off the coast of galway Sean
Russell died and the u-boat returned to base without landing Ryan . The
exact nature of the mission is unknown as files were never released to
the public but it is known that Russell had been trained in sabotage by
the Germans .
Russell is reported to have died of a perforated ulcer although I have
read that the Germans believed he was poisoned by Ryan as the two
men did not like each other . This is probably the reason Ryan was not
landed on his own and did not carry out a similar mission later in the
war .
With regard to politics the IRA leadership had always been split since
it's creation between the traditionalists and the socialists . Russell was
a traditionalist and was only interested in getting the British out of
Ireland and Ryan was a socialist who had fought in the Spanish Civil
War against Franco and was a diehard anti Nazi .
It is interesting to note that the German in charge of Irish affairs at the
foreign office was SS Standartenfuhrer Edmund veesenmayer who was
regarded as a specialist in overthrowing goverments so this has led
to speculation over the u-boat mission .
Regards , Ian .
Most of the Information on the IRA that i have read suggests that they told the Germans to get lost because the last thing they wanted was someone else that they would have to learn how to fight.
Also any reports the the IRA was Pro-German are a little off the IRA was SLIGHTLY German inclined just because they were smashing up the Brits
(Something any Irish Republican at the time would favor)
Also any reports the the IRA was Pro-German are a little off the IRA was SLIGHTLY German inclined just because they were smashing up the Brits
(Something any Irish Republican at the time would favor)
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John Kilmartin
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Nationalism and Socialism
Hi Sid,
I couldn't agree more on the idea that the two are not diametrically opposed. The best example I can think of this is here in Canada the Parti Qubecois provincially and the Bloc Quebecois federally.
The province of Quebec is definitely the most socialist and the most nationalist in Canada. The level of government intervention in the economy in la belle province is such that it skews the national average significantly.
The Bloc Quebecois has by far the most socialist platform of the the four parties in the federal parliament. Unfortunately, they do not have any interest in seeing them implemented in a united Canada.
It is interesting to note that Quebec was by far the most priest-ridden province in Canada before the 'Quiet Revolution' that saw the fall in the power of the Church and the rise of Separatism.
I couldn't agree more on the idea that the two are not diametrically opposed. The best example I can think of this is here in Canada the Parti Qubecois provincially and the Bloc Quebecois federally.
The province of Quebec is definitely the most socialist and the most nationalist in Canada. The level of government intervention in the economy in la belle province is such that it skews the national average significantly.
The Bloc Quebecois has by far the most socialist platform of the the four parties in the federal parliament. Unfortunately, they do not have any interest in seeing them implemented in a united Canada.
It is interesting to note that Quebec was by far the most priest-ridden province in Canada before the 'Quiet Revolution' that saw the fall in the power of the Church and the rise of Separatism.
Last edited by John Kilmartin on Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
' Strip war of the mantle of its glories and excitement, and it will disclose a gibbering ghost of pain , grief, dissappointment and despair'
However, O'Duffy's Blueshirts are the Free State's very own fascist organisation aren't they? 
Sent a brigade off to fight for Franco (not that they did much fighting being assigned to a quiet sector) containing both Protestant & Catholic from both sides of the border united in their anti-Communism.
O'Duffy was a former IRA man who became a general in the Free State Army after siding with Collins in the Civil War.
People forget that it was the Irish Metereological Service that provided the forecast that convinced Eisenhower to go on 6th June 1944. A small, unsung piece of co-operation between the Free State & British during the war. All the more surprising when you remember that DeV was in charge!
Sent a brigade off to fight for Franco (not that they did much fighting being assigned to a quiet sector) containing both Protestant & Catholic from both sides of the border united in their anti-Communism.
O'Duffy was a former IRA man who became a general in the Free State Army after siding with Collins in the Civil War.
People forget that it was the Irish Metereological Service that provided the forecast that convinced Eisenhower to go on 6th June 1944. A small, unsung piece of co-operation between the Free State & British during the war. All the more surprising when you remember that DeV was in charge!