Hello all !
I try to understand something about German divisional OBs, especially for a Panzer Division.
In the late Pz. Div., several divisional units are "Panzer" (Pionier Bataillon, Aufklärungs Abteilung, Artillerie Regiment).
But in the early, it is common to see the term "(Motorisiert)". However, this is not for all the divisional units (for example, it could be the Pionier Bataillon and the Aufklärungs Abteilung, but not the Artillerie Regiment).
Could someone explain me why ? Were these mentions different from a Pz. Div. to another ?
Thank you very much by advance
Loic
German terms in divisional Orders of Battle
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Christoph Awender
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Hello Loic!
You are right that they used the term (mot) in the early years and Pz. later in the war.
This was the same reason as they changed Infanterie- to Grenadier, Panzer-Abwehr to Panzer-Jäger-...... mostly for morale reasons because these terms sound "stronger"
A Korps with Panzerdivisionen was a Armeekorps (mot) in Poland, France, Balkan and the first stages of russia. I don´t know the exact date but the terms changed from Armeekorps (mot) to Panzerkorps, to Panzerarmee etc...
I could have a look when the change was made in the weekly reports of the OKH if you are interested.
\Christoph
You are right that they used the term (mot) in the early years and Pz. later in the war.
This was the same reason as they changed Infanterie- to Grenadier, Panzer-Abwehr to Panzer-Jäger-...... mostly for morale reasons because these terms sound "stronger"
A Korps with Panzerdivisionen was a Armeekorps (mot) in Poland, France, Balkan and the first stages of russia. I don´t know the exact date but the terms changed from Armeekorps (mot) to Panzerkorps, to Panzerarmee etc...
I could have a look when the change was made in the weekly reports of the OKH if you are interested.
\Christoph
Hello Christoph !
Good to see you.
I knew that point, even if I don't understand really what a Grenadier Division is "stronger" than an Infanterie Division. But it's maybe because I'm French...
It seems to have changed at different time in the war for these abreviations.
For instance, an Armeekorps (Motorisiert) began Panzerkorps between June and August 1942. A Panzergruppe began Panzerarmee between October 1941 and January 1942. A Panzerabwehr Abteilung began Panzerjäger Abteilung (I believe) after the Polenfeldzug or the Westfeldzug. Etc, etc.
I give you a more specific question : could you indicate me what were the divisional units called "(Motorisiert)" in a early Panzer Division ? For the three first ones, built in October 1935, I think there were :
- Aufklärungs Abteilung (Motorisiert) - 37, 38 and 39
- Pionier Bataillon (Motorisiert) - 37, 38 and 39
- Artillerie Regiment (Motorisiert) - 73, 74 and 75
But I am not sure that they were really "(Motorisiert)". Then, there could be also Schützen Brigade (Motorisiert). But you know this sort of thing far better than me.
See you soon
Loic
Good to see you.
I knew that point, even if I don't understand really what a Grenadier Division is "stronger" than an Infanterie Division. But it's maybe because I'm French...
It seems to have changed at different time in the war for these abreviations.
For instance, an Armeekorps (Motorisiert) began Panzerkorps between June and August 1942. A Panzergruppe began Panzerarmee between October 1941 and January 1942. A Panzerabwehr Abteilung began Panzerjäger Abteilung (I believe) after the Polenfeldzug or the Westfeldzug. Etc, etc.
I give you a more specific question : could you indicate me what were the divisional units called "(Motorisiert)" in a early Panzer Division ? For the three first ones, built in October 1935, I think there were :
- Aufklärungs Abteilung (Motorisiert) - 37, 38 and 39
- Pionier Bataillon (Motorisiert) - 37, 38 and 39
- Artillerie Regiment (Motorisiert) - 73, 74 and 75
But I am not sure that they were really "(Motorisiert)". Then, there could be also Schützen Brigade (Motorisiert). But you know this sort of thing far better than me.
See you soon
Loic
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Roger Griffiths
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Hi Loic,
Grenadier Division was first title for Volksgrenadier Divisions. It's probably matter of opinion whether they were stronger than ID44. Less men, more effective weapons....StG44 and 12cm mortars for instance. 44 Reichsgrenadier Division 'Hoch und Deutschmeister' may have been favoured with weapons and equipment, but I do not have any Reports.
Panzer and Panzer Grenadier Divisions wholly armoured and motorized by establishment. British and U.S. not so. British required some attached motor transport units, U.S. rule of thumb was that trucks could move all men or all equipment, but not both. German's put Brit. and U.S. Divs. on situation maps as t (teile=part) mot.
Roger
Grenadier Division was first title for Volksgrenadier Divisions. It's probably matter of opinion whether they were stronger than ID44. Less men, more effective weapons....StG44 and 12cm mortars for instance. 44 Reichsgrenadier Division 'Hoch und Deutschmeister' may have been favoured with weapons and equipment, but I do not have any Reports.
Panzer and Panzer Grenadier Divisions wholly armoured and motorized by establishment. British and U.S. not so. British required some attached motor transport units, U.S. rule of thumb was that trucks could move all men or all equipment, but not both. German's put Brit. and U.S. Divs. on situation maps as t (teile=part) mot.
Roger