I posted a message several days ago looking for the wrong number. I've since been informed that my grandfather's Feldpostnummer was 10583 E (not 10553).
He was KIA in the Ukraine near Saporoschje on Jan 11 1944. I assume, based on that, he might have been part of the 123 Infantrie-Division. That's all I know.
Can someone look up for me what unit his FPN belonged to, and any unit history you might know about that unit.
Thanks,
Feldpostnummer 10583 E
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Feldpostnummer 10583 E
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Richard Schoutissen
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Re: Feldpostnummer 10583 E
Gefreiter,Gefreiter wrote:I posted a message several days ago looking for the wrong number. I've since been informed that my grandfather's Feldpostnummer was 10583 E (not 10553).
He was KIA in the Ukraine near Saporoschje on Jan 11 1944. I assume, based on that, he might have been part of the 123 Infantrie-Division. That's all I know.
Can someone look up for me what unit his FPN belonged to, and any unit history you might know about that unit.
Thanks,
This would be the 4. Kompanie Grenadier-Regiment 420 of the 125. Infanterie-Division. (that period near Nikopol, about 50 miles from Saporoschje)
Richard
The date may be wrong, too, unless the word "near" is viewed in a permissive context. On 11 Jan 44 the front line was 30 km east of Nikopol'. Zaporozhye (Zaporizhzhya) is another 38 km further to the east, or 68 km east of Nikopol'. Zaporozhye was liberated by the Russians on 14 Oct 43.He was KIA in the Ukraine near Saporoschje on Jan 11 1944.
Lieber Gefreiter!
Here are some references. There are probably a few others, since the so-called battle for the Zaporozhye Bridgehead and the vital hydroelectric dam located there was of some importance in the broader scheme of things.
Carell, Paul. Scorched Earth: Hitler’s War on Russia. Volume 2. London: George G. Harrap & Co. Ltd, 1970. pp.371-77. Excellent, with mention of both 123. and 125. Inf.Div.
Erickson, John. The Road to Berlin. Boulder (CO): Westview Press, 1983. pp.138-39. Just a couple of paragraphs from the Soviet side.
Haupt, Werner. Army Group South: The Wehrmacht in Russia 1941-1945. Atglen (PA): Schiffer Publishing, 1998. pp.297-301. Poor.
Salmaggi, Cesare and Alfredo Pallavisini (comp.). 2194 Days of War: An Illustrated Chronology of the Second World War. New York: Gallery Books, 1979. p.429. Noted in a single paragraph.
Schramm, Percy E. (ed.). Kriegstagebuch des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht. 1943 Teilband II. München: Bernard & Graefe Verlag, 1982. pp.1193-98. A few sentences for each day, 12, 13 and 14 Oct 43.
Ziemke, Earl F. Stalingrad to Berlin: The German Defeat in the East. Army Historical Series. WashDC: Office of the Chief of Military History United States Army, 1968. pp.174-77. Good, but covered from a command level.
You can also do an advanced Google search using:
Zaporozhye 14 October 1943 (this will get you English language material);
Saporoshje 1943 (this will get you German language material).
--Lorenz
Here are some references. There are probably a few others, since the so-called battle for the Zaporozhye Bridgehead and the vital hydroelectric dam located there was of some importance in the broader scheme of things.
Carell, Paul. Scorched Earth: Hitler’s War on Russia. Volume 2. London: George G. Harrap & Co. Ltd, 1970. pp.371-77. Excellent, with mention of both 123. and 125. Inf.Div.
Erickson, John. The Road to Berlin. Boulder (CO): Westview Press, 1983. pp.138-39. Just a couple of paragraphs from the Soviet side.
Haupt, Werner. Army Group South: The Wehrmacht in Russia 1941-1945. Atglen (PA): Schiffer Publishing, 1998. pp.297-301. Poor.
Salmaggi, Cesare and Alfredo Pallavisini (comp.). 2194 Days of War: An Illustrated Chronology of the Second World War. New York: Gallery Books, 1979. p.429. Noted in a single paragraph.
Schramm, Percy E. (ed.). Kriegstagebuch des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht. 1943 Teilband II. München: Bernard & Graefe Verlag, 1982. pp.1193-98. A few sentences for each day, 12, 13 and 14 Oct 43.
Ziemke, Earl F. Stalingrad to Berlin: The German Defeat in the East. Army Historical Series. WashDC: Office of the Chief of Military History United States Army, 1968. pp.174-77. Good, but covered from a command level.
You can also do an advanced Google search using:
Zaporozhye 14 October 1943 (this will get you English language material);
Saporoshje 1943 (this will get you German language material).
--Lorenz
No, the information I provided was that according to Rückzugskämpfe in der Ukraine 1943/44 (Rolf Hinze), the 123. Infanterie Division pulled back from their positions at Saporoshje in the very early part of January 1944.I was told that the 123. Infantrie Division did not leave Saporoschje until Feb. 1944.
Furthermore, despite records stating that Saporoshje was liberated on October 14th, 1943, a small portion of the city on the west bank of the Dniepr River remained under German control. This is the area that was later abandoned by the 123. ID in early 1944.
Christian
I might also add that the maps in Carell and Ziemke also contradict Hinze, clearly showing the front line on 11 Jan 44 to be approximately 30 km east of Nikopol'. All of the 6 sources that I cited either state or imply that the Germans were driven steadily back from the western approaches to the city during the week or several weeks following its taking by Soviet forces. So it looks like some additional sources need to be checked.
--Lorenz
--Lorenz
You are incorrect.Yes, my bad, I meant Jan 44. But anyway, the "liberation" in Oct 43 still contradicts the statement made by Hinze.
Hinze makes no statement in respect to the "liberation" of Saporoschje and the fighting around the city was far from over by October 1943. As I indicated, despite the claim of liberation on October 14th, the Russian push stopped at the Dniepr, leaving the suburbs on the west bank under German control. Hinze merely indicates that the 123. Infanterie Division pulled back from its positions on the west bank of the Dniepr by early 1944.
These are the facts.
Christian
I have both Carell and Hinze and to be honest there is hardly a comparison in respect to the maps. This is one of the main reasons why I never use Carell as a source for historical facts.I might also add that the maps in Carell and Ziemke also contradict Hinze, clearly showing the front line on 11 Jan 44 to be approximately 30 km east of Nikopol'.
While Hinze's book is far from perfect, the maps are without a doubt a strong point. They provide good detail down to the divisional level and there are plenty of them.
In respect to the fighting around Saporoshje, there are 6 full page maps covering the time frame from September 23rd, 1943 to January 16th, 1944 (By this time 123 and 125 ID are about 30-40 kilometers SW of Saporoshje). In fact, there is a very detailed outline of the positions around Saporoshje on December 5th, 1943. There is no doubt that German divisions were still in full control of the area west of the city (Dniepr west bank) at that time. If you have any solid information to the contrary, I would be interested in seeing it. In case you have a copy of Hinze's book, the map is on page 251.
I am afraid that the position of the front east of Nikopol is of little or no relevance in this discussion and most certainly it is not a contradiction between Hinze and Carell. The map on page 126 highlighting the front on January 16th, 1944, indeed shows that Russian troops were about 30 or so kilometers from Nikopol, which is also where they were by end of November 1943. This is thus of no relevance as you can see with the actions around Saporoshje which is located about 65-70 kilometers north east from there.
What evidence have you come across in your sources suggesting that 123. ID had been pushed out of its position west of Saporoshje in October/early November 1943?
Christian
Anybody serious with military history research knows that the number of sources is irrelevant. It is the quality and the reliability of the information that are paramount.So, Christian, are you saying that your one source trumps all of the other six sources and no further research is needed? That's pretty arrogant, isn't it?
Having a keen interest in Heeresgruppe Süd since my father fought there in 1943, I read Carell but to be honest with you, I would never consider using such a book as a reference for historical facts.
If you have any good information/details in your other five sources suggesting that 123. ID was pushed from its position on the west of Saporoshje in October/early November, I would be interested in seeing it. What information do you have in comparison to Hinze's map on page 251 (Situation map - Dec. 5th, 1943)?
Christian
Christian -
That's exactly the kind of good, solid facts and analysis that are needed. Now we have something to work with. I would still recommend that Gefreiter check some other sources before concluding that Hinze is 100% correct and the other sources, especially Ziemke and Carell, are all wrong.
As for the two divisions and the German front line from 14 October 1943 to 11 January 1944 in the sector to the west and southwest of Zaporozhye, one could arrive and no other conclusion from the narrative and maps in most of the 6 sources I cited.
I think the best thing Gefreiter can do is to buy or borrow the unit history book for the 125. Inf.Div. and see what it has to say on the subject.
Another resource might be the Lagekarten Ost. I think Victor Madej (Valor Publishing) has a series of volumes that reproduce these, and I think Biblio Verlag does also. All of the surviving Lagekarten are available on 35 mm slides at the U.S. National Archives and can be ordered individually in several different formats. The final and best resource might be the records of the several Armeekorps and Panzerkorps that were in that immediate sector. All or most of these are available on microfilm from NARA WashDC and would include the day-to-day situation and numerous maps. It all depends of how far Gefreiter wants to go.
My interest in this was simply to try and answer the guy's question as best I could from the resources immediately available to me. If you, Christian, are a life-long researcher and history buff as I am, then you know there is never too much corroboration, especially when one book says one thing and 6 others say something entirely different about the same subject.
--Lorenz
That's exactly the kind of good, solid facts and analysis that are needed. Now we have something to work with. I would still recommend that Gefreiter check some other sources before concluding that Hinze is 100% correct and the other sources, especially Ziemke and Carell, are all wrong.
As for the two divisions and the German front line from 14 October 1943 to 11 January 1944 in the sector to the west and southwest of Zaporozhye, one could arrive and no other conclusion from the narrative and maps in most of the 6 sources I cited.
I think the best thing Gefreiter can do is to buy or borrow the unit history book for the 125. Inf.Div. and see what it has to say on the subject.
Another resource might be the Lagekarten Ost. I think Victor Madej (Valor Publishing) has a series of volumes that reproduce these, and I think Biblio Verlag does also. All of the surviving Lagekarten are available on 35 mm slides at the U.S. National Archives and can be ordered individually in several different formats. The final and best resource might be the records of the several Armeekorps and Panzerkorps that were in that immediate sector. All or most of these are available on microfilm from NARA WashDC and would include the day-to-day situation and numerous maps. It all depends of how far Gefreiter wants to go.
My interest in this was simply to try and answer the guy's question as best I could from the resources immediately available to me. If you, Christian, are a life-long researcher and history buff as I am, then you know there is never too much corroboration, especially when one book says one thing and 6 others say something entirely different about the same subject.
--Lorenz
Saporoshje
Hey Guys great thread.Thanks. Managed to learn something new. The unit histories here are pretty sketchy for some reason.
Feldgrau unit history for the 123ID = 8.41-12.42 II 16. Armee Nord Demjansk 1.43-8.43 II 16. Armee Nord Demjansk, Cholm 9.43 Reserve 16. Armee Nord Cholm 10.43-12.43 XVII 1. Pz. Armee Süd Saporoshe 1.44 XVII 6. Armee Süd Saporoshe 2.44 XXX 6. Armee Süd Saporoshe 3.44 (Kgr.) LVII 6. Armee A Kriwoi-Rog
The 123 ID bore the attack on the southern part of the Demjansk encirclement. General Brockdorff wanted to retreat to shorten the 400mile front to 100miles. February 1 1943 Permission was given the straighten out the front in a "schrittweiser" manner. 70 days was allocated to evacuate all the men and equipment. On March 1 in only 30 days the evacuation was accomplished. This is where my father's story differs. The history then puts the 123 in Cholm. However my father can not recollect ever being in Cholm. He remembers leaving the protection of the forests of Demjansks to the great open plains because the men had trouble adjusting to the battle conditions in that is they didn't keep there heads down. The unit came through Charkow and Dnepropetrowsk to the somewhere in the Donez region. There his unit of 50 men held a 2 kilometer front until they were ordered to retreat to the Dneper river. In the heat of the retreat he was cut off from his men when they were overrun by russian tanks. Alone behind enemy lines he made his way to Saporosche and caught up with his unit. On October 24 he was captured in the outskits of Saporosche. November 1943 Generalleutnant Erwin Rauch was back in command of the 123 to continue the fight for Saporosche.
Feldgrau unit history for the 123ID = 8.41-12.42 II 16. Armee Nord Demjansk 1.43-8.43 II 16. Armee Nord Demjansk, Cholm 9.43 Reserve 16. Armee Nord Cholm 10.43-12.43 XVII 1. Pz. Armee Süd Saporoshe 1.44 XVII 6. Armee Süd Saporoshe 2.44 XXX 6. Armee Süd Saporoshe 3.44 (Kgr.) LVII 6. Armee A Kriwoi-Rog
The 123 ID bore the attack on the southern part of the Demjansk encirclement. General Brockdorff wanted to retreat to shorten the 400mile front to 100miles. February 1 1943 Permission was given the straighten out the front in a "schrittweiser" manner. 70 days was allocated to evacuate all the men and equipment. On March 1 in only 30 days the evacuation was accomplished. This is where my father's story differs. The history then puts the 123 in Cholm. However my father can not recollect ever being in Cholm. He remembers leaving the protection of the forests of Demjansks to the great open plains because the men had trouble adjusting to the battle conditions in that is they didn't keep there heads down. The unit came through Charkow and Dnepropetrowsk to the somewhere in the Donez region. There his unit of 50 men held a 2 kilometer front until they were ordered to retreat to the Dneper river. In the heat of the retreat he was cut off from his men when they were overrun by russian tanks. Alone behind enemy lines he made his way to Saporosche and caught up with his unit. On October 24 he was captured in the outskits of Saporosche. November 1943 Generalleutnant Erwin Rauch was back in command of the 123 to continue the fight for Saporosche.
Lorenz,
A serious researcher of military history should not leave any sources unchecked and on this point I can agree. However, quality and reliability of the information remains paramount.
Since records about the 123. and 125 Inf. Div., XVII Korps, 1. Panzer Armee should be available on microfilm at NARA, Gefreiter will have plenty of opportunity to research the events in great detail. Personally, I always try to corroborate events through multiple primary sources. Again, your recommendation in this sense is a good one.
Having said that, you keep making statements about Hinze’s book providing a totally different account from the sources you highlighted. You also claim that the maps in Carell’s book contradict Hinze’s account of events. I can’t agree with any such statements and this is why I specifically requested that you provide data to support your comments. So far you have not offered anything.
If you had a copy of Hinze’s book and knowledge of the details on the maps, you would realize that there is no comparison with the maps in Carell’s book. If you had read Hinze’s book, you would also realize that he does not contradict Carrel. All you have done in response to my questions is to advance a personal conclusion based on the narrative in some of your sources (as you write it) and you should understand that this does not constitute historical evidence but it is merely your interpretation. Therefore I would kindly ask that next time somebody challenges information you provide, you be a little bit more considerate before calling them “arrogant”.
Again, if you have any evidence showing that 123. Inf. Div. was pushed back from its positions on the west bank of the Dniepr at Saporoshje in October and early November 1943, please let me know about it as I would be interested it seeing it. Otherwise, please refrain from questioning the accuracy of Hinze’s book which is a pretty solid account of the events in the Ukraine in 1943 and early 1944.
Christian
A serious researcher of military history should not leave any sources unchecked and on this point I can agree. However, quality and reliability of the information remains paramount.
Since records about the 123. and 125 Inf. Div., XVII Korps, 1. Panzer Armee should be available on microfilm at NARA, Gefreiter will have plenty of opportunity to research the events in great detail. Personally, I always try to corroborate events through multiple primary sources. Again, your recommendation in this sense is a good one.
Having said that, you keep making statements about Hinze’s book providing a totally different account from the sources you highlighted. You also claim that the maps in Carell’s book contradict Hinze’s account of events. I can’t agree with any such statements and this is why I specifically requested that you provide data to support your comments. So far you have not offered anything.
If you had a copy of Hinze’s book and knowledge of the details on the maps, you would realize that there is no comparison with the maps in Carell’s book. If you had read Hinze’s book, you would also realize that he does not contradict Carrel. All you have done in response to my questions is to advance a personal conclusion based on the narrative in some of your sources (as you write it) and you should understand that this does not constitute historical evidence but it is merely your interpretation. Therefore I would kindly ask that next time somebody challenges information you provide, you be a little bit more considerate before calling them “arrogant”.
Again, if you have any evidence showing that 123. Inf. Div. was pushed back from its positions on the west bank of the Dniepr at Saporoshje in October and early November 1943, please let me know about it as I would be interested it seeing it. Otherwise, please refrain from questioning the accuracy of Hinze’s book which is a pretty solid account of the events in the Ukraine in 1943 and early 1944.
Christian