The Baltics are under attack

[Lacplesis]

There is a new attack on the Baltic countries. It has to do with the occupation by the Russians of the Baltic nations after WWII. There is a new history being written by the Russian government and its agents trying to explain the occuption as "Russia gave the Baltics to Germany in 1918 and in 1939 gave them back to Russia so it is legal" .
The problem with this is all the treaties signed by the Russian government with each Baltic country between 1918 and 1939 which the Russian Government fails to acknowled.
As noticed in this site and others there is a basic question of "WERE THE BALTIC COUNTRIES OCCUPIED OR VOLUNTEERED TO JOIN THE USSR" the following discussion is done by Victor , Michelis, or other claiming to be living in Latvia. No matter what prove you provide , the answser will be Russia is not guilty.
This goes with Goebbels statement "Say a lie enough times and people will beleive"
I am trying to figure out a defense to this lie attemptand want to make people aware of what is going on.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Lacplesis,

I don't think that there is any question that the Baltic States were occupied by the USSR. For example, the USA never recognised Soviet possession of the Baltic States and their legations in Washington were never closed. If I remember rightly, one Baltic diplomat acredited to the USA in 1940 was still in his legation when his country got independence from the USSR in the early 1990s and was appointed its first ambassador.

Nope. There is no doubt whatsoever that the Baltic States wre occupied by the USSR.

Cheers,

Sid.

[strauts]

the thought that anything comming out of russia can be believed is laughable. Instead of worrying about the status of the baltic states, they should research and publish their own history in the 20th century....they will find that the killing comissars of the 20's,30'sand 40's butchered their own people by the millions..to say nothing of what they did to the baltic peoples in 41..If we shed some light on these killers we will find the communists were no better than the nazis...and that they have 0 credibility until they come clean......

[Laurent Daniel]

they have 0 credibility until they come clean......

For Russians to come clean and have credibility after 70 years under Leninist and Stalinist rules will require few generations.
Maybe my great grand son will see that?
For you, and me, as well as all the today's member of this forum, no hope to see it, even the teenagers of today

At the end of WW2, the USSR forced the 3 Baltic states, Poland, Eastern Germany, Hungary, Romania, Ukraine and some others to become Soviet colonies. Whatever puppets they found to become "democratic leader", they were set on power by the T34. Period. That was the price paid by the world for the bill presented by Staline: His Red Army, with heavy horrible losses, destroyed the Wehrmacht. At Yalta, Churchill and Roosevelt signed the cheque.

Lacplesis, don't pay too much attention. If you are a citizen of one of the Baltic countries, simply dig a bit into your history and everything is there to counter-attack the Russian negationists. Simple facts and truth. Well, same for any other negationists or denialists, by the way

[Ada]

According to Baltic countries I have two feelings.

1. They were oppressed by Russians.
2. Their freedom fighters during WWII committed incredible crimes.
So I cannot find my full compasion.
E.g.
Szaulisi:

Convicted people were taken to Ponary by trucks, by train or they were driven on foot. They were shot close to or inside the ditches. There were often maltreated close to the ditch in order to receive valuable information.

Polish blood had flown in Katyn;, Miednoje, Charkow, Oswiecim or Majdanek – but also in Ponary, place 10 km far from Wilno. There is lack of information of that events in Poland and in the world.

Till the outbreak of WWII Ponary was spa for Wilno’s inhabitants. After incorporation of Lithuania in 15 June 1940 Russians began the construction of the fuel base for fighters. They dug 7 or 8 huge ditches; 3 or 4 were 32m in diameter and with depth of 4 meters, rest were 12m in diameter and with 3m depth.

After the beginning of German-Russian war, 2 days after pursuit of Wilno’s area (26 June 1941) Germans started mass murders on Polish Nation. They used former fuel base – they surrounded it with barbed wire and they took there first prisoners (incl. Jews of Wilno’s ghetto approximately 70thousands people).

The first execution in Ponary took place in 4th July 1941, - Germans and Lithuanians killed 54 Jews. The biggest execution took place on Jews on 2nd September 1941, in revenge of alleged Jews actions - Jews were accused of shooting to German solders. On that day Germans killed 3,7 thousand Jews.

There were horror scenes in Ponary. Kazimierz Sakowicz was the witness of that events(he saw everything from his house’s attic). We wrote memory and hid it in the bottles burred in the garden. When the bottles were found the author didn’t live anymore. He died in Wilno during the Burza action on 5th July 1944 (His diary is in central State Archives in Wilno).

During 3 years long occupation since July 1941 till July 1944 there were approximately 100.000 victims killed in Ponary. The exact number is not known.

The executions on Jews, Gypsies, Poles and communists were committed by Germans but also with big help of Lithuanian helpers of paramilitary Unit called Lietuvos Szauliu Sajunga (Lithuanian Shooting Assosiation) – so they were called „szaulisi” (they probably also took part in Warsaw Uprising – on Germans’ side). That organisation was established in Lithuania in 1919 and was known for its chauvinism and anti-Semitism. There were 62 thousands members in 1940. On that time Lithuanians population was 2,2-milion people. It should be remembered that some of Szaulisi were also solders of Lithuanians Activists Front – organisation established in Germany in 1940. The front made intelligence service for Germans. The organiser of Wilno’s Sonderkommando, officially assigned to Gestapo, was German Martin Weiss, and the commander was Lithuanian Army Second Lieutenant Balys Norwaisz.

The troop what made execution in Ponary was called – Ypatingas Buris „ponar’s schooters”. They had green uniforms of Sicherheitsdienst. In each execution there were involved approx. 80 szaulises, and about 100 were guarding the base.

The ponar’s executions were extremely cruel. Most of the executioners were drunk. So they often missed – wounded victims were not killed but buried alive. They also often aimed at victims’ legs or stomachs on purpose. Some of the victims were tortured before throwing them into the ditches. Mothers were forced to see their children’s death. Small babies were thrown alive directly into the ditches - it was people’s slaughterhouse.

Starting with October 1943 murderers became to burn down gathered bodies. Corpses were arranged into great piles. Every pile was burning 8-9 days.

After WWII end only 20 Ponar’s schooters from 108 were caught.

And other interesting information of war murderers “Szaulisi”:
http://www.diapozytyw.pl/en/site/slowni ... now/wilno/

http://www.forum-znak.org.pl/index-en.p ... ad&id=1561

or
http://www.ushmm.org/uia-cgi/uia_query/ ... y=kw110149

The same Latvians.

[Torquez]

I think what our Baltic poster was talking about was the attempt of Russian media and nationalist to deny the brutal occupation and extermination of Baltic people by Soviet Russia. We shouldn't forget that most of Lithuanians fought for independence of their country and the massacres happened due to German ideology.

[Ada]

I couldn't agree more - they were oppresed by Russians - but they were not only victims on the other hand.
And they forgot to punish murderers - but they blindly cheer the freedom fighters.
They were also the cruel prepatrators -and not only Lithuanians - that was only an example.

[Laurent Daniel]

A single one of your quote made the whole of your post highly questionable, Ada:

2. Their freedom fighters during WWII committed incredible crimes.
So I cannot find my full compasion.
Polish blood had flown in Katyn

The slaughter of Polish Officers in Katyn was committed by Soviet Russian Bolchevist officers.
What the hell this event is doing in your attack against the Baltic States?????????

And, please, don't talk too much about the Baltic forces engaged along with the Waffen SS and/or other Nazi forces. ALL the European Nations, with the exception of the Vatican and the Principality of Monaco, sent volunteers to the Eastern Front.

Please try again. What are you trying to demonstrate? I didn't get your point. Be more precise and quote sources, thanks.

[Ada]

Laurent

If you could read my whole article You could have understood whole statement:

"Polish blood had flown in Katyn;, Miednoje, Charkow, Oswiecim or Majdanek – but also in Ponary, place 10 km far from Wilno. There is lack of information of that events in Poland and in the world. "

It is generally where Poles were killed. That is translated article.

And note: Poland had not own, dedicated SS - so do not compare that nations. You have seen how many Poles took part in SS in thread "how many nations in ss". Compare that amount to dozens milions of inhabitants of Poland.

We were not fighting for freedom hand in hand with Germans - because we lost freedom because of them. In Poland such fighters are treated as traitors.

And sorry but I find Your post rather offensive.

Sources...
Is there Wisenthal institute ok?
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp ... G&b=395183
http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenthal. ... 06721.html
http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenthal. ... 02399.html

http://www1.yadvashem.org.il/search/index_search.html
http://www1.yadvashem.org.il/search/index_search.html
http://www1.yadvashem.org.il/search/index_search.html

[Laurent Daniel]

Laurent

My name is Daniel.

If you could read my whole article You could have understood whole statement:
"Polish blood had flown in Katyn;,

I read it.
What Katyn has to see with the Baltic states??? (Second time I asked it)

And note: Poland had not own, dedicated SS so do not compare that nations. You have seen how many Poles took part in SS in thread "how many nations in ss". Compare that amount to dozens milions of inhabitants of Poland.

So what, there were Polish Waffen SS, as there were Waffen SS from all over Europe. I am not supporting them, just counting.

We were not fighting for freedom hand in hand with Germans - because we lost freedom because of them. In Poland such fighters are treated as traitors.

As every where else in Europe, nothing special

And sorry but I find Your post rather offensive.

Truth is offensive?
Sorry for that

Sources...
Is there Wisenthal institute ok?
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp ... G&b=395183
http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenthal. ... 06721.html
http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenthal. ... 02399.html

Sorry, we are talking about the Holocaust or about the Baltic states, you get me confused????
But that's not a surprise.

[Lacplesis]

I would be first in line to admit that some Latvians took part in murdering Jews but that statement and others referring to murder should be disected . As stated above ,108 soldiers took part in that murder but the author blames 2.2 million Lithuanians for it . There is evidence that about 2000 Latvians took part in the murders but to blame a whole nation of almost 2 million for those crimes is like all the people in the USA are guilty of the massacre at Mai Lai Vietnam.
The facts should also include that when Germany invaded Russia the citizens of the Baltic countries rose up and attacked the Russians and drove them out before the Germans arrived. The Germans then disolved all local goverments and put Germans in command of all the police units and renamed the area "OSTLAND".
On one of the websites furnished above talks of the 22nd Liepajas police Battalion taking part in the murder of Jews on the Baltic Coast. I believe the murder happened but "how" is the question. When the Russians first invaded Latvia it released prisoners from Rigas' Central Prison convicts and gave them jobs . Janis Asnis serving 10 years for 11 felonies was made inspector of police. Matis Botanikers serving 6 months for burglery was given the job of Police Chief in Liepaja and was still in command at the time of this incident.
All land that the Russians had requisitioned was declared property of Germany and it became aware to the population that one evil was replaced by another. There are stories of when German soldiers climbed into cabs the cabdriver would turn off the engine, get out and leave. Trucks carrying belongings of Germans moving into Latvia would arrive with the cargo damaged.
Then came the getto's and the murder of many people (Jews, clergy, people speaking out against German occupation,etc) . There was an underground weekly newspaper critical of the Germans in Riga. By the end of 1942 around 42,000 people had died in Latvian concentration camps.
The Latvian Legion was only formed in the middle of 1943 after the Jews had already been murdered so it would be hard to blame the the Legion as a body. The Germans controled the draft and some of the Latvians who partook in this murder were called into the Legion and many perrished in the battles and others disapeared. The Legion was cleared by the commission at Nurenburg.
The Latvian Legion was called volunteer but it was far from that. When the Germans started the Unit there were few "volunteers" so they resorted to the draft but still called them volunteers. As my father, uncle ,and others would say "you had four choices when drafted. 1 join the Legion 2- volunteer for factory work in Germany 3- go to a concentration camp 4- go into the forest and hide" . As soon as these soldiers formed a unit they were shipped to the Lenningrade front just in time to help the Germans retreat so they did not have time for Jew hunting or any other autocities against the people as stated in the above post.
As in "Katyn" the Latvians also had been murdered by the Russians and the same I beleive the Lithuanians and Estonians so there was a bloodbath committed by both sides.
I fail to see how the Latvian, Lithuanian, Estonian, government can be held liable for this since this happened while the Russians and Germans were occupying the country and had disolved the legitimate authority and only several years ago did the occupation end and a legitimate goverment rule and it had more desperate agenda than finding old men around the world that might or might not have murdered people over 50 years ago. The records are gone or destroyed by the occupiers so all we have are memories and offhand wild remarks made by people who accuse but can't prove anything.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Daniel,

There is a Baltic parallel with Katyn. In the year following the Soviet Union's occupation of the Baltic States in June 1940, much of their armies' existing officer corps were arrested and sent into the USSR never to be seen again. Their fate was probably similar to that of the Polish officer corps.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Enrico Cernuschi]

...or maybe worste.

EC

[AAA]

Its not just a parallel - the Latvian officer corps was largely murdered by shooting out at Litene on 14th June 1941.

[Lacplesis]

I can not give clear quick answers to all questions posted for I want to present fact and not stupid statements that have been floating around.
I suggest the website
http://www.briviba.lv/Jews/full.htm#prelim

to help in this thread