Selbstschutz in Poland

[MAXIS]

hi to all

I'm looking for infos about Selbstschutz in Poland fm 1939 to the bitter end.
Parlicularly: organization, commanders, unit's numbers or names, operations and more; details, details, details......

I'll appreciate every infos.

Thks to all
Maxis[/b]

[Jason Pipes]

The first such instance of ethnic German Volksdeutsche from Poland being formed into units to support Germany was in September of 1939 with the attack on Poland. Upon the entrance of German troops into the regions of Western Poland, small groups of Volksdeutsche came together and formed local milita groups. These Volksdeutsche milita aided the German attack in many areas, and became so useful that shortly after the German Invasion, between September 8th and 10th, it was decided to reorganize the milita groups into Self-Protection units, otherwise known as Selbschutz. The Selbschutz was therefore formed in the early days of the German attack on Poland from ethnic German-Poles between the ages of 17-45 in the regions of Western Poland. The Selbschutz came under the control of the SS, being organized into three regions known as Südlicher Bereich, Mittlerer Bereich and Nördlicher Bereich. Each region was itself divided into districts known as Kreise, and each Kreise into a locality or Ort. The southern and central regions came under the direct control of the SS-Hauptamt, while the northern region came under the control of the RSHA. As September 1939 came to an end, the Selbschutz was reorganized and came under the operational control of Ordungspolizei or Order Police. Throughout its existance, the Selbschutz was entrusted with various rear-area security and support operations, and in many cases earned for itself an infamous reputation - so much so that it was therefore requested that the Selbschutz be disbanded. An order was later placed directing that the Selbschutz be disbanded as of November 8th, 1939, with effect from the 30th of November, 1939. A select few units of the Selbschutz would go on to serve until April of 1940 when all unit were finally and permanently disbanded. It is thought that a total of 45,000 ethnic German-Poles served in the Selbschutz before it was ordered to be disbanded.

[Jez]

Could it be possible to genuinly and sincerely answer these question i have for quite a time wanted to get to the bottom off?

Was the ethnic German population of the Polish areas of Posen etc, genuinly being attacked and oppressed by the Poles?

The two months that the Selbschutz was effectively in operation what exactly was the atrocities carried out by them?

Kind regards, Jez.

[Henrik Krog]

Yes, they were attacked and oppressed by the Poles. During the invasion of Poland, about 5-10.000 ethnic German civilians were killed by the Poles. The Germans later blew up the number to about 60.000, if I am not wrong.

Many of the killings took place as groups of ethnic Germans arrested on suspision of 5th column-activity were threatened to be run over by German troops. Rather than surrender them, the Polish soldiers and policemen shot them.

Another kind of killings occurred when actual German 5th columnists shot at Poles, and these then retaliated, in many cases also rounding up and shooting Germans who had nothing to do with it.

The most known case was in the city of Brombers/Bygdosczc (I hope my spelling is right)

Of course, given that it was a war, and the fronts were moving so fast, the Poles were prone to suspect there was foul play involved. How much is hard to ascertain, though, as Polish paranoia produced an enormous amount of reports on 5th column activity, all the way down to Germans having searchlights shining up their chimneys to guide German planes, or growing crops in patterns so as to guide German planes to their targets.

The German wartime report on the killings can be found here:

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/ ... _intro.htm

The Polish line is generally, that nothing of the sort happened, and if it did, that the people were all 5th columnists.

Henrik

Could it be possible to genuinly and sincerely answer these question i have for quite a time wanted to get to the bottom off?

Was the ethnic German population of the Polish areas of Posen etc, genuinly being attacked and oppressed by the Poles?

The two months that the Selbschutz was effectively in operation what exactly was the atrocities carried out by them?

Kind regards, Jez.

[MAXIS]

Hi to all, guys


Jason, I'm a bit confused: I know, literature says that Selbstschutz was disbanded on 1939/40 but....

check on Axis Europa Magazine: on Issue 15, Fall 1998 "Auxiliary Forces in Poland: 1944 and the Warsaw Uprising (part V)", Munoz clearly talks about various Selbstschutz-Bataillons during 1944 and define title (really, the commander's name) of those bataillons!!!!!

What do you think about???? Coud You help me to solve this "problem"?

Thks

Best - Max

[Jason Pipes]

Well, the answer is the first "version" of the Selbschutz was disbanded in the spring of 1940, the last unit being disbanded in April, but almost as soon as it was disbanded a new volunteer force was created named the Sonderdienst. The Polish Sonderdienst went on to include 7 battalion-sized units stationed in various regions around Poland. These units took part in police, security and occupation duties. Many were implicated in deporting Jews and in taking part in warcrimes. These later Polish Sonderdienst units are the units that I believe the article was refering to.

[MAXIS]

Hi Jason

Now it's clear and this confirm Littlejohn's "Foreign legions of the III Reich":
"In May 40 uniformed Sonderdienst was set up, drawing on male volksdeutsche volunteers (...)".
Littlejohns talks about a Sonderdienst arm badge "Warschau" but, apart fm Munoz, this is the only info I have about Sonderdienst organization/name/commanders/operations/fate. Du You know where is'it possible to find more infos about? Books, the web and more (apart fm archives in German, the US etc...)

(The same, about "first version" of the Selbstschutz).

Whereas 7 bataillons were formed, 3500/4000 men at least entered into Sonderdienst: a meaningful amount! I did not believe there's no infos about them.

Thks fr Your patience

Best - Max

[Orzel]

Hello all again, after some inactive service I have returned. Jason you mind remember from last year when we had a discussion on your post about "Polish" collaboration with the Germans. In your posts here with your very own words you contradict your anti-Polish propaganda of Poles collaborating with the Germans. Ethnic Germans living in Poland are not, never were and never will be considered Poles. Simply because those ingrateful Germans Dogs decided to bite the hands of their benefactors after hundreds of years of Polish benevolence does not make those ingrates Poles. It simply makes them ingrateful German hounds who forgot their place, but no worries we dealt properly with them during and after the war. Some of you might be familiar with the Polish Underground Batallion 'ZOSKA", If you are not I suggest reading up on it, the story of this unit will make any German or Ukrainian Swine living in Poland think twice about collaborating with the Germans.

[Jason Pipes]

Orzel, another outburst like that and it'll be your last post on this site. You're rambling and mistakes aside, what exactly is your point again? That no Poles fought in the service of the Germans? Well, what exactly would you call the Polish Blue Police? And as for ethnic Germans for Poland, depending on how you view the matter, they can easily be considered Poles. In some circles if you're born in a country you're a member of that countries makeup, your ethnicity aside.

[Orzel]

Oh I see what kind of forum this is as long as everyone agrees with the almighty Fuhrer, oh I mean Jason we're allowed to talk? and as far as my mistakes go what exactly are they? What that the reason why Poland had a high ethnic German population is due to the fact that we allowed for Religious freedom for hundreds of years and that's why German Protestans, Kalvins etc moved to Poland in their tens of thousands, is that a mistake Jason? Funny that you had nothing to say about the ZOSKA battalion, as if it never existed? I'll make the research easier for you Z - Zdraicom, O - Ojczyzny, S- Smierc --Traitors, of Motherland, Death - keep in mind that is direct translation basically Death to Traitors this was a special unit whose objective was the elimination of elements who sided with the occupant. As far as the "Blue Police" as you call them, well even during war time crime does not stop and a police force is necessary, however how many members of the Police were actually in AK? Of course I agree with you Jason that we are not an immaculate nation and that crimes by individuals were committed - certain isolated incidents by individuals of little moral character. However I will not idly stand by as you slander my country by continually insinuating that "there were elements in Poland ready to fight for the Germans". Again I say these people were not, will not and are not POLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's funny that Jews no matter where they live are always considered Jews, even if they reside somewhere for hundreds of years, but whenever it's convenient for Western Historians to fling mud at Poland they find cases of "Polish Collaboration en masse" even though it was actually Ethnic Germans living in Poland at the time. We have stood by long enough as Westerners who know nothing of our history insult our good name and I for one will not stand for it and speak out against the untruth whenever I happen to see it. So don't consider these outbursts Jason simply corrections from a person who has a lot more at stake here than you do namely - Honor!

[Orzel]

Jason my dear, how would you reply if some little know it-all posted this kind of tripe about your country?"The Polish Sonderdienst went on to include 7 battalion-sized units stationed in various regions around Poland. These units took part in police, security and occupation duties. Many were implicated in deporting Jews and in taking part in warcrimes. These later are the units that I believe the article was refering to." I know that you mean good and that you know that there were no Poles in these Polish Sonderdienst units but rather Ethnic germans, however to a person with little or no knowledge of WWII who would read this would get the impression that it was actually POLISH SONDERDIENST UNITS WHO DEPORTED JEWS AND COMMITTED WAR CRIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you see my problem Jason? So once again I ask you to correct your statements so that they reflect the truth....from now on refer to these units as Sonderdienst/Selbschutz composed of Ethnic Germans living in Poland or something like that but not as POLISH SONDERDIENST ok? Or are you too arrogant and ignorant to learn from your mistakes?

[Orzel]

[quote="Henrik Krog"]Yes, they were attacked and oppressed by the Poles. During the invasion of Poland, about 5-10.000 ethnic German civilians were killed by the Poles. WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTT? Yes but of course I forgot it was the Poles who actually were oppresing the Germans during WWII. It was the Poles who invaded the small little helpless country of German in 1939 and it was these bloodthirsty Poles who raped, pillaged and plundered and butchered millions of innocent little germans. I'll even tell you a little secret, just to make the germans feel a little better about themselves so they dont they're the only ones, we the Poles setup concentration camps right after we conquered poor innocent little Germany and then we began exterminating the germans as we considered them an inferior race. In fact we went as far as proclaiming to be the masterrace and wanting to control all of Europe. There are all of you German-loving, Nazi-apologists(It's not so bad that we did cause you know some people killed Germans too) happy? Why is it that Germans have this driving desire to clear their conscience by blaming others? Oh and as far as the 5th column as spies (not wearing uniforms) under international law those spies were executed for being exactly that spies!!!

[Jason Pipes]

This is your final warning, if you continue to post your comments in the manner you have shown above, that is, refering to us as Nazi-apolgists, followers of the Fuhrer, er me, etc, etc, you will be banned.

If you have something constructive to say, say it. If you have something to offer to the discussion, do so, but don't step on here for the first time and automatically start spouting the invective you have.

This *IS* your final warning.

[Henrik Krog]

WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTT? Yes but of course I forgot it was the Poles who actually were oppresing the Germans during WWII. It was the Poles who invaded the small little helpless country of German in 1939 ....bla bla bla

I can do without your "irony". If you take the time to read the posting I replied to, you will see why I used the wording in my reply. Apparently you didnt. Anyway:

No, "The Poles" were not oppressing the Germans during WWII. They had already had the pleasure for 20 years before that war, driving out between 500.000 and 1.000.000 ethnic Germans between WWI and WWII, primarily in the years immediately following WWI.

we the Poles setup concentration camps right after we conquered poor innocent little Germany and then we began exterminating the germans as we considered them an inferior race.

You apparently dont know the difference between "Concentration-" and "Extermination-" camp. As to concentration camps, I count after the war some 16 within pre-1939 Polish border (among others at Warszawa, Bytom, Bydgoszcz and Krakow), and another 8 within regions of pre-1939 Germany after 1945 belonging to Poland, that were used for concentration of civilian deportees to the Soviet Union.

I dont know about inferior race. "Non-Polish" for sure.

In fact we went as far as proclaiming to be the masterrace and wanting to control all of Europe.

Dont be rediculous. You are only making yourself look the fool here. Of course neither the Polish people nor the Polish state tried that.

Oh and as far as the 5th column as spies (not wearing uniforms) under international law those spies were executed for being exactly that spies!!!

As far as I know, 80% of the AK/ZWZ/AL didnt wear uniforms as well. Does that make them spies and make it all right for the Germans to execute them as spies?? In fact, according to the exact same laws you quote, it does.

Of course, it takes a trial by military law first, which I dont think any of them (neither ethnic Germans nor AK/ZWZ/AL) got.

One question, by the way: I have noticed that ultra-nationalist Poles tend to mainly come from the diaspora (ie, from countries other than Poland), or are living abroad. How about you - where do you live??

Henrik

[Orzel]

Thank you very much for your warnings Jason, however you still avoid the issue which started this whole debate, namely will you stop to distribute your false information of Polish Sonderdienst and Selbschutz, the moment you stop lying and flinging mud at the Polish nation I will stop to insult you... deal? You have to remember for you Americans this is simply pages from a history book for us Poles this is our National Honor!