Panthers and Tigers after Zitadelle Aug 43: Help!

[Sean Oliver]

This whole issue is confusing, but I'll try to describe it as best as I can. I'm sure some of you have been able to figure this out better than I.
I'm trying to figure out what happened to the Panthers and Tigers of 10. Pz Brigade (51 and 52 Pz Abt) and sPzAbt 503 after the battle of Kursk in July, but before and during August 1943 (i.e. Operation Rumyantsev - the Belgorod-Kharkov Operation). Which HQ controlled them, how many were available and where they were deployed?
Glantz's "Don to Dnepr" says:
During Op. Rumyantsev (AKA the 'Belgorod Kharkov Operation' in August 1943 right after Zitadelle) the 19. PzDiv had been reinforced with the "52nd Panzer Detatchment with about 9 Tigers and Panthers operational" deployed aound Tomarovka, west of Belgorod.
Glantz's source for this bit of informtion comes from one of those US Army Historical Manuscripts prepared by German officers after the war. The author was somebody named Reinhardt, and the manuscript was called something like "Operations of Army Group South Summer of 1943" (I don't have Glantz's book in front of me right now). Nipe's book on this battle repeats this bit of info also.
The problem with this is that 52 Pz Abt was one of the allegedly disbanded Panther units. If there was an independent Pz detatchment around Tomarovka, it would've been sPzAbt 503 - a Tiger unit that definitely was in the area. This Reinhardt fellow probably confused 503rd with 52nd.
... Or perhaps he's correct after all, and the 52nd really did take over temporary control of 503's Tigers? Why does Reinhardt think it was the 52nd and not the 503rd?

Anyone know for certain?

Grossdeutschland's Panthers After Kursk:
GD was transferred away from AG South and the Tomarovka area in late July, and sent north to AG Center (Karatchev area) for about 3 weeks. GD then returned to AG South in mid-August.

When GD left for AG Center, did it have any of 10 pz brig's Panthers?

When GD returned to AG South, by mid August they had apparently aquired about a dozen or so Panthers, (according to KOSAVE ) supposedly from Pz Abt 51 based on markings. It is possible the Panthers had been sent back from the Tomarovka area and had been 'borrowed' by GD when GD returned to the area.

The whole question of AG South's Tigers and Panthers in Aug 43 is really hard for me to sort out to my satisfaction based on my limited resources. (There are other explanations regarding the panzers that I have not written here because it would take too long).
If anybody has better sources than I do, please help out with the facts....
Thanks, Sean.

[Apollyon]

As I understand the surviving PzKw V's were formed in to GD as they were part of KG Von Natzmer 8/15/43. 51 and 51 Abteilung were the 2 original PzKw V units for Citadelle but from what I understand their organisations did not survive much past July 43. sPanzer Abt 503 formed into KG Bake later in 43 but I've got nothing on them in the Summer of 43 after Citadelle. Remember GD had Tigers organic to it and they sometimes get missassociated to other units.
(Like 9th Pd's Luchs keep getting associated with 116th PD) Glant'z has had error's pop up occationally like KG "W"'s Brummbars in "Red storm over the Balkans" There are also transcription/translation errors in the NARA files, the GI's who translated for the German interveiwees didn't allways get it 100% and you should try to get the originial German wherever possible. An example of what I'm talking about is that a Flammpanzerwagen, Gepanzertflammwagen and Flammpanzer all will get translated as "Flamethrower Tank" but a Flammpanzerwagen or Gepanzertflammwagen is usually a Sd Kfz 251/16 while a Flammpanzer is a PzKw IIIm Flamm. This has caused some confusion and even some arguements.

[Jason Long]

According to Jung's History of PzR GD, Pz.Bde. 10 was removed from the division's command on 18 July, before it went to AGC and came under command of XXXXVIII PzK. Pz.Abt. 51 turned over its tanks to Pz.Abt. 52 and went off to get new ones about that same time. Pz.Abt. 52 was assigned to LII. AK and later to 19. PzD. It was redesignated as I./PzR 15 on 24 Aug 43 according to Jentz, where as Pz.Abt. 51 wasn't returned to its original designation of II./PzR 33 until Jan 44.

When GD transferred back south to the Achtyrka area it commanded Pz.Abt. 51 which had been issued new Panthers. The Stab and 2 remaining companies of III./PzR GD also arrived about that same time.

Jung quotes tank strength for the division on 8 Aug:
Pz III 3 + 6 under repair
Pz IV 6 + 31
Pz VI 3 + 28

I have the unit history of Pz.Abt. 51, but it's a little short of strength returns for 1943.

for s.Pz.Abt. 503 I think that you need to consult Tigers in Combat I.

[Rchrd]

s.Pz.Abt 503 on 8 August moved from SW of Kharkov towards Bogodochov and attached to Das Reich. On 11 Aug. the batt was "near Maximofka with 12 or 13 Tigers." So from this I get that the 503rd was a distinct entity. Unteroffizier Niemann, Gunner in Tiger 332 and the source for this narrative, claims that at the end of July, after the battalion had moved to Kharkov, they had suffered only 4 total losses during Citadel. Is there anything specific you're after?

[Martin Block]

Some data on Pz.Abt. 51 and 52 taken from original documents :

OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt.(I) Nr. I/3320/43 g.Kdos. v. 15.7.1943 and 17.7.1943
Pz.Abt. 52 will immediately take over all Panthers of Pz.Abt. 51.
96 new Panthers originally intended to equip the I./Pz.Rgt. 26 will be sent to Pz.Abt. 51 from Grafenwoehr on 18.7.1943.

Gruppe V(J) Nr. I/41988/43 geh. v. 20.7.1943
Status of the 2 Panther-Abteilungen as of 18.7.1943, 1600 hours:
Abteilung 51:
operational 33 Panthers
under repair 32 Panthers
total write-offs 31
Abteilung 52:
operational 28 Panthers
under repair 40 Panthers
sent back to Germany for repairs 4 Panthers
total write-offs 24 Panthers

17./18.7.1943 96 Panthers shipped from H.Za. to Pz. Abt. 51
12 additional Panthers had already been shipped on 13./17.7.1943 as 'Nachschub' to Pz.Rgt. 39. Apparently these were taken over by Pz.Abt. 52.

OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. Nr. I/6567/43 geh. v. 28.7.1943
Pz.Abt. 51 (Heerestruppe) is tactically attached to der Pz.Gren.Div. ’Großdeutschland’.
Pz.Abt. 52 (Heerestruppe) is tactically attached to 11. Pz.Div. unterstellt.

31.7.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 reports 0 Panthers available, 94 intransit to unit
31.7.1943 Pz.Abt. 52 reports 132 Panthers available, 21 operational

10.8.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 reports 57 Panthers available, 31 intransit to unit
10.8.1943 Pz.Abt. 52 report not available

OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. Nr. I/7034/43 geh. v. 19.8.1943
Pz.Abt. 52 is renamed to I./Pz.Rgt. 15 and incorporated into Pz.Rgt. 15 of the 11. Pz.Div.
Next available report for I./15 is from 10.9.1943 and shows 96 Panthers available, 51 operational

20.8.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 reports 74 Panthers available, 28 operational

31.8.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 reports 60 Panthers available, 15 operational

10.9.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 reports 59 Panthers available, 13 operational

20.9.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 reports 59 Panthers available, 13 operational

30.9.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 reports 58 Panthers available, 6 operational

10.10.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 reports 56 Panthers available, 8 operational

15.-21.10.1943 11 Panthers shipped from H.Za. to Pz.Gren.Div. 'GD', i.e. Pz. Abt. 51

20.10.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 reports 49 Panthers available, 1 operational

31.10.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 report not available

10.11.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 reports 27 Panthers available, 0 operational

20.11.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 reports 27 Panthers available, 4 operational

30.11.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 reports 25 Panthers available, 1 operational

10.12.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 reports 17 Panthers available, 15 operational

OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. Nr. I/10411/43 geh. v. 14.12.1943
Pz.Abt. 51, until now tactically attached to Pz.Gren.Div. ’Großdeutschland’, will remain in H.Gr. Sued area when the division leaves.

20.12.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 report not available

31.12.1943 Pz.Abt. 51 reports 16 Panthers available, 12 operational

OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. Nr. I/15016/44 g.Kdos. v. 3.1.1944
Pz.Abt. 51 is renamed to II./Pz.Rgt. 33 and incorporated into Pz.Rgt. 33 of the 9. Pz.Div.


Martin Block

[Sean Oliver]

Wow, thanks, guys! As the saying goes; "Seek - and you shall find; Ask - and ye shall recieve; Knock - and the door shall open..."

I tried to sort it all out with Jentz's Panzertruppen II, but it still didn't quite make sense. Now it does.

Apollyon:
I think von Natzmer was GD's Operations Officer or Chief of Staff or something. The KG you mentined was one of the first to venture out south of Achtyrka in search of the Soviet advance guard. I wasn't certain if von Natzmer had any Panthers with him....Thanks.


Jason:

Thanks, so the 52 was part of the 19.PzDiv - So Glantz was correct, just wrong about the type of tank; unless 503.sPzAbt had left a few Tigers w/19.PzD. That's possible. 19 and 11 PzD were both very close to the town of Borisowka, which was apparently a broken-tank collection point during Zitadelle. It was on a RR line which led to Kharkov and Germany.

It seems the PzAbt 51 got its new Panthers delivered over late July and early August at Briansk RR station from crews and tanks originally intended for I./PzR 26 (see Martin's post)...(funny how such a 'junior' Pz Div as the 26th - stationed in Italy, no less - would be set to recieve one of the first of the new Panther Abteilungen...) Grossdeutschland just happened to be in the Briansk area (AGC) at that exact moment, so GD got the 51st attached again. Apparently the 51st became the defacto 'GD Panther Abteilung' for a period of several months until it was renamed back to its original, pre-Zitadelle designation: II./PzR 33....I wonder if the 51st's crews got to wear GD cufftitles? (No, I doubt it).

What do you mean by "Unit History" of the 51st? It's not a book is it? Docs? Combat reports? Microfilm?

Also, is Jung's book on PzRgt GD another one of those overpriced photo albums with nothing but photos in it? Does it have operational information, maps, or text or anything truly useful in it?

Rcrd:

Did you get your info from the 503rd's unit history - the Fedorowicz edition? I don't have it, but it's coming out soon in a cheap paper version that I will get....Thank you, every bit helps.

Martin:

That's what I wanted to see; something from the archives! Your info clears up all my questions. Thank You. Where did you get this from? Which roll/reel of microfilm? Now that NARA sells DVDs of microfilm, I can get just about everything I need for my research.

I'm trying to do detailed 'Operations Research' on Smolensk July-Sept 1941, Belgorod-Kharkov Aug 1943, Kiev-Zhitomir Nov-Dec 1943, Nikopol/Krivoy-Rog Nov-Dec 1943, 'Hube's Pocket' April 1944, Debrecen Oct 1944. Mostly highly mobile engagements on the 43-44 Ostfront, often what might be called 'meeting engagements', 'mobile defence' and also including what the Germans called 'Gegenschlacht'. Most of the engagements involve 1.PzD, 7.PzD, 23.PzD, 24.PzD, GD, LAH, DR, T, etc (i.e. AG South)

[Jason Long]

Thanks, so the 52 was part of the 19.PzDiv - So Glantz was correct, just wrong about the type of tank; unless 503.sPzAbt had left a few Tigers w/19.PzD. That's possible. 19 and 11 PzD were both very close to the town of Borisowka, which was apparently a broken-tank collection point during Zitadelle. It was on a RR line which led to Kharkov and Germany.

It seems the PzAbt 51 got its new Panthers delivered over late July and early August at Briansk RR station from crews and tanks originally intended for I./PzR 26 (see Martin's post)...(funny how such a 'junior' Pz Div as the 26th - stationed in Italy, no less - would be set to recieve one of the first of the new Panther Abteilungen...) Grossdeutschland just happened to be in the Briansk area (AGC) at that exact moment, so GD got the 51st attached again. Apparently the 51st became the defacto 'GD Panther Abteilung' for a period of several months until it was renamed back to its original, pre-Zitadelle designation: II./PzR 33....I wonder if the 51st's crews got to wear GD cufftitles? (No, I doubt it).

What do you mean by "Unit History" of the 51st? It's not a book is it? Docs? Combat reports? Microfilm?

Also, is Jung's book on PzRgt GD another one of those overpriced photo albums with nothing but photos in it? Does it have operational information, maps, or text or anything truly useful in it?

Sean,
You'll need the new Fire Brigades book to get decent coverage of the units in the '44 actions you're interested in. Jung's book is quite decent. Not much on hard numbers, but good otherwise. Do you realize that GD, during this period, is controlling 4 panzer battalions? I., II., III./GD and 51? I'm not aware of any other division ever controlling more than three for such an extended period. The history of Pz.Abt. 51 is of mixed quality. Very brief summary of actions with some organizational summaries showing weapons and vehicles by KStN. Not much strength data otherwise. Citation is Panzerabteilung 51: Heerestruppe: II./Panzerregiment 33: 9. Panzerdivision 1943-1945 by Kurt Gätschmann, 2. Auflage. I made my partial copy either from ILL or a visit to the Library of Congress.
Jason

[Sean Oliver]

Jason: Just ordered Fire Brigades...Looks great. Thanks for the tip. I'll try to get that 51st book through ILL too.

GD did indeed control 4 Pz batalions on paper, but as you know they often only fielded a few tanks at a time. In Aug 43 I. and II. could muster what - about 20-30 ea. of Pz III and PzIV, plus about a dozen PzV from the 51st? The III. Abt began arriving at the GD in Aug, but only about 10-15 Tigers were delivered in Aug (it seems), and almost all of them were promptly put out of action due to mines. By Sep the remainder of III. was eventually delivered, totaling +/-30 Tigers, but as usual, most were under repair at any given point in time.

It seems GD didn't get their "own" Panthers until summer 44 or so. Didn't Das Reich get their Panthers starting in late Aug? Totenkopf and Wiking didn't get theirs until summer 44, but LAH and and 23.,24.,25., and 26. Pz Rgt got their Panthers in summer 43, but evidently none of these Rgts went to their parent PzDivs at first. Instead they were sent where the situation was bad.
In that 1000-page plus book compiling Hitlers Conferences edited by Glantz, (and including a few dumb errors) there are a number of discussions w/Hitler and Zeitzler and/or Keitel (etc) about where to send all these new Panther Abteilungen during summer of 43; send them to Italy or to Russia? Hitler really was 'playing soldiers' rather than pondering sophisticated, intelligent strategic decisions. It's amazing the German generals tolerated Hitler's utter amateurishness.

So...do any of you know about the equipment of the non-'panzer' units of GD and the other PzDivs in Aug 43? Mainly I'm curious about the Aufklarung Abteilungen. Those units were incredibly important, and they did everything; attack, defend, screen, delay, hold, and recon, even hunt T-34s when necessary. Although they were supposedly 'light' infantry, they seemed to be better equipped than most PzGren Rgts on a man-man basis. Each Aufkl Abt seemed to have its own TOE based on each PzDiv's needs and capabilities, which makes it difficult to determine their actual composition. Did they ever follow KSTN's? Did any unit of the Wehrmacht after 1942?

[Jason Long]

Sean,
Jentz's book on the Sd.Kfz. 250 shows GD on 30 June 43 with 27x 250/1, 1x 250/3, 14x 250/5, 4x 250/6, 3x 250/7, 3x 250/10 and 2x 253. Most, if not all, of these are in the Aufkl.Abt. I wouldn't sweat the disparity between the KStNs and the actual strengths too much since losses often made mockery of a KStN fairly quickly. Jentz quotes unit fieldings of new organizations of the 250s and 251s fairly frequently so they weren't strictly notional. The Aufkl.Btl. were actually organized much alike although some would have extra companies of various types. And if you're interested in their equipment then I'd recommend Jentz's book since it has strength figures for a variety of dates.

The Panther Battalions, except for the SS-Divisions, were definitely Heerestruppen and went wherever needed. Fire Brigades has pretty good coverage of them.

Jason

[Sean Oliver]

Sean,
Jentz's book on the Sd.Kfz. 250 shows GD...

Jason;
Do you mean Jentzs' 'Panzertracts' series or some other book? He has so many by different publishers.

I just saw a text excerpt from that new KG Strachawitz book from JJF, and it gives the AFV inventory of Pz AA/PzDiv "FHH" on Jan 1 44: something like 140+ (!) various makes of SPWs, and PSWs in just that one recon Bn. Apparently all delivered. 30+ per squadron. This must've been the '44 Pz Div ' KStN for Aufklarungs Abteilungen...

I was also browsing the NARA finding guides over at Sturmpanzer.com...Evidently, GD's divisional records (KTB plus Anlagen etc) are all missing after 1942.

[Jason Long]

Yeah, the brand-new Panzer Tracts vol. 15-1