Warcrimes commited by 7th Panzer, France 1940

[Andy H]

The warcrimes were commited against French colonial (Black) soldiers who had surrendered in 1940.

Looking for further information

Regards

[Lorenz]

The warcrimes were commited against French colonial (Black) soldiers who had surrendered in 1940.
Regards

So, how many thousand are you saying were massacred? Date? Place? Method (machine gunned, executed by rifle fire, made to lie in the road where they were run over by the tanks, drawn and quartered by tanks, etc.), and, most especially, your sourcing, please. Unlike Axis History Forum, we like lots and lots of sourcing for war crimes accusations here, Andy. Can you help us out with this? Otherwise, your statement is an unsourced accusation and Feldgrau's administrator and moderators are not too fond of those.

Cheers,

--Lorenz

[Andy H]

Ho Lorenz

Unlike Axis History Forum, we like lots and lots of sourcing for war crimes accusations here

I would suggest that we are the same, and especially within the H&WC section.

Specific to the 7th Panzer

During the Struggle between the 53rd regiment of the 7th colonial infantry division and the 7. Panzedivision from Rommel, taking place in Airaines (Somme) from 5th to 7th June 1940, the losses are heavy on both sides. Without munitions a French company surrenders. Black and white men are separated. The captain N'Tchoréré is simply shot down and later 109 bodies had been found in common graves

In Airaines, 109 French POWs from the 7e DIC executed (7.PzD apparently)

This and further information concerning the killing of French colonial troops are all in this thread:-

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23970

and the following

Main executions of POWs occur in June on the Somme (tens of Black POWs), at Rouen (121 Arabian and Black), on the Eure-et-Loir (at lest 50 Africans of 26 RTS), on east of France (several cases after 17/6, between 5 and 10 POW, only one case Black) and near Lyon (more than 100 black soldiers killed after surrendering on 20-21/6).

from
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1431

Regards

[Andy H]

Otherwise, your statement is an unsourced accusation and Feldgrau's administrator and moderators are not too fond of those.

Why the hostility?

I'm not making an accusation but seeking further information, unless every question, query or collabrative post falls under your use of the word 'accusation'

Regards

[Christoph Awender]

..

[Lorenz]

Otherwise, your statement is an unsourced accusation and Feldgrau's administrator and moderators are not too fond of those.

Why the hostility?
I'm not making an accusation but seeking further information, unless every question, query or collabrative post falls under your use of the word 'accusation'
Regards

Andy, your post before you edited it and included "Looking for further information" was a simple, one-line declarative statement accusing 7. Pz.Div. of committing war crimes against black French colonial soldiers. That's all it said. My reply was in response to that and that alone. Later, you came back and added the amendment. Me and many other members here who read your statement without the amendment thought you were trying to provoke something. As you may recall, Feldgrau nearly imploded several months ago from the bickering that seemed to fill every thread. Since then, we have all been making a sustained effort to avoid provocations. That's why I called you on it. Your omission of the appended phrase "Looking for further information" may have been just a moment of forgetfulness, but we had no way of knowing that.

Cheers,

--Lorenz

[Andy H]

Otherwise, your statement is an unsourced accusation and Feldgrau's administrator and moderators are not too fond of those.

Why the hostility?
I'm not making an accusation but seeking further information, unless every question, query or collabrative post falls under your use of the word 'accusation'
Regards

Andy, your post before you edited it and included "Looking for further information" was a simple, one-line declarative statement accusing 7. Pz.Div. of committing war crimes against black French colonial soldiers. That's all it said. My reply was in response to that and that alone. Later, you came back and added the amendment. Me and many other members here who read your statement without the amendment thought you were trying to provoke something. As you may recall, Feldgrau nearly imploded several months ago from the bickering that seemed to fill every thread. Since then, we have all been making a sustained effort to avoid provocations. That's why I called you on it. Your omission of the appended phrase "Looking for further information" may have been just a moment of forgetfulness, but we had no way of knowing that.

Cheers,

--Lorenz

Hi Lorenz

Yes after I responded to your post I went back and looked at mine, and I then saw that I hadn't actually asked anything, just made a statement. Apologies for that and being a bit sharp in my response.

Certainly not looking to provoke, just searching for additional info about these events and others which never seem to make the light of day, when compared to the well-known warcrimes commited by the SS in the west in 1940

So still looking for more information concerning the events stated.

Regards

[Tom Houlihan]

This could be related to a question I was getting ready to put up.

Being aware of Rommel's opinion of the SS (generally speaking), what are the chances of an SS Untersturmführer being assigned to 7.Panzer's Feldpolizei unit?

I'm in the midst of a memoir right now, and that is the claim. Somehow, it doesn't seem right.

Then again, if there were an SS officer, loosely attached to the RSHA, that could be a factor in the murder of 100-odd French soldiers.

[Christoph Awender]

Andy, your post before you edited it and included "Looking for further information" was a simple, one-line declarative statement accusing 7. Pz.Div. of committing war crimes against black French colonial soldiers. That's all it said. My reply was in response to that and that alone. Later, you came back and added the amendment. Me and many other members here who read your statement without the amendment thought you were trying to provoke something. As you may recall, Feldgrau nearly imploded several months ago from the bickering that seemed to fill every thread. Since then, we have all been making a sustained effort to avoid provocations. That's why I called you on it. Your omission of the appended phrase "Looking for further information" may have been just a moment of forgetfulness, but we had no way of knowing that.

Cheers,

--Lorenz

I am sure you know AndyH and his overall oppinion about the topic and that he is none of "that kind" of people you implement. Obviously you think that you are an official speaker of Feldgrau ("we like lots and lots of sourcing for war crimes accusations here") and the shot that AHF does not require sources is not just very, very, very cheap but also not even close to the truth.

\Christoph

[John W. Howard]

Hello Folks:
I am getting tired of the personal attacks in this forum. Please follow the old adage that if you do not have anything positive to say, keep your mouth tightly shut, or in this case keep your finger off the posting button. Feldgrau was not designed as a place for people in a bad mood to exercise their anger at others expense; knock it off!!

[Andy H]

Jean Paul Pallud makes reference to the events around Airaines on pages 478-479 of his 'Blitzkrieg in the West (Then & Now series)", with a few pictures to support (maybe subjectively) these events.

Regards

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Please follow the old adage that if you do not have anything positive to say, keep your mouth tightly shut, or in this case keep your finger off the posting button.

AMEN!

Pallud's book has a fair amount of information on these warcrimes. I assume that all Andy is asking for is an elaboration on these incidents from French or German sources.

As to the reference to AHF, both forums, IMHO, are equally in search of truth and require sourcing of statements. We should treasure the differences between the forums as providing for a diversity of viewpoints.

Best,
David

[Andy H]

Please follow the old adage that if you do not have anything positive to say, keep your mouth tightly shut, or in this case keep your finger off the posting button.

AMEN!

Pallud's book has a fair amount of information on these warcrimes. I assume that all Andy is asking for is an elaboration on these incidents from French or German sources.

As to the reference to AHF, both forums, IMHO, are equally in search of truth and require sourcing of statements. We should treasure the differences between the forums as providing for a diversity of viewpoints.

Best,
David

Hi David

I'm just seeking info to further my knowledge on these events.

I must admit that my knowledge of warcrimes commited by the Heer was scarce at best. However with this event and the massacre at Vinkt, the alleged Tobruk inncident, plus a recent book by Weidt(?), has somewhat opened my mind to the fact that the Heer has had a free ride when compared to the more well known WFSS massacres.

The AHF/Feldgrau issue is a non issue.

Regards

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Perhaps the Heer atrocities in France were far over-shadowed by their overwhelming victory and only brought to light after the defeat of Nazi Germany?

I don't get the sense that the sacrifice of African troops was quite appreciated by the French in either WWI or WWII, but that is my own very humble interpretation of history.

The graveside pictures of Pallud seem to argue that I am wrong in my evaluation, but how many French mourned the sacrifice of African troops in the immediate aftermath of the WWII?

Very Best,
David

[Andy H]

DCC wrote:

Perhaps the Heer atrocities in France were far over-shadowed by their overwhelming victory and only brought to light after the defeat of Nazi Germany?

Hi David

Perhaps your right, but the massacre of British troops at Wormhout by the SS is more widely known than those committed by the Heer in Belgium/France even now, some 66yrs later.

I don't get the sense that the sacrifice of African troops was quite appreciated by the French in either WWI or WWII, but that is my own very humble interpretation of history.

The graveside pictures of Pallud seem to argue that I am wrong in my evaluation, but how many French mourned the sacrifice of African troops in the immediate aftermath of the WWII?

I would go along with that general premise, though the humiliation of France in 1940 precluded a lot of soul searching.

Regards