Hitler's views on Britons

[Einsamer_Wolf]

SALUT!

My understanding is that Hitler actually had a great amount of respect for the British, and was disappointed, later enraged they did not acquiesce or appease him, let alone ally with him. As I understand, Nazi dogma on race held Britons, or Anglo-Saxons, to be racial equals of Germans. My question is how far this sympathy, this outlook on Britons as a people extends to all Britons, ie the Welsh and the Scottish, in addition to the English. The problem presents itself with the German word for Briton, Englander. As the British know, English (or Englander) is not synonymous with British. Just ask the Scottish, who largely do not even like to be called British!
So with that preamble, did Hitler's racial theories favor just the English, or the Welsh and Scottish as well. Also, how did these theories look upon the Irish?

EW

[mvonb]

Without quoting my references, I know that the Irish had links to the 3rd Reich, and republican feeling is generally )to the general public of north west england) interpreted as being pro Hitler. Conversely, some troops from Eire did in fact fight for the BEF and in later campaigns. One saying in Liverpool due to the May '41 Blitz is, "turn right at Ireland", since they did not observe the blackout. Hence bombers had a clearly navigated path to the docks of the city.

[Liam]

He certainly had great respect for the British Empire but I'm not sure about the British themselves. Since he may well have fought against British troops in Ypres he might have had some negative opinions - I seem to recall that he felt they were stubborn in defence but not so good in attack. As for the average German's view of various parts of the UK, in my experience, most of them are as aware of regional differences as British people are of those of Bavarians, Frieslanders or Swabians! Although they do tend to associate Scotland with and !!!!

[Helmut Von Moltke]

judging by some documentaries I have seen, some Wehrmacht officers admired British gentelman lifestyle, and in footage I saw when English tourists visited Germany a few Wehrmacht officers rode horses British style for them. Also in some book I forgot one time when Hitler addresses his generals at a meeting he uses the English word Gentelman.

[Einsamer_Wolf]

I guess my question is this; is Hitler's and collective German admiration for the British actually for the English and the English alone, or does it also extend to the Scots, for example. Or did they understand the differences between the two. British does not mean English. How did Nazi racial theories, as propogated by Hitler and friends, regard the Scots, the Welsh, the Irish? Did they regard them any differently than the English, or did they regard them all as non-distincitve Britons?

EW

[Liam]

Well the Scots, Welsh and Irish are more usually defined as 'Picts' and/or 'Celts' as opposed to the more usual 'Anglo-Saxon' definition of the English (these are fairly vague definitions although if there is an element of truth about them). I would imagine that Himmler's racial specialists were quite aware of Celtic culture in parts of the UK since they would be echoed by ceratin elements used by the SS (runic symbols and certain pagan-rooted traditions possibly). Militarily, of course, some Scots are more identifiable to non-UK people since they wore very distinctive garments - i.e. kilts - and boy did the German soldiers dislike kilted soldiers!!

[phylo_roadking]

Hmmmm....some very sweeping generalities here LOL

"SOME" Irish fought with the BEF...ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY THOUSAND "irishmen" of all origins fought with the British armed forces during the war. AT this time, the population of Ireland was 3 million - thats a hell of a big percentage. Irish Citizens had dual citizenship and still do - they are both British and Irish Citizens. In those days the countries had the same currency, all Ireland's essential supplies of ANYTHING she couldn't make (which was a LOT) came from or via England. A sizeable percentage of the population did NOT agree with DeValera's odd brand of neutrality and were at the very least anti-Nazi, if not plain anti-German - many tens of thousands of Irish died during the Great War.

A parable here - the Irish government, in an attempt to ensure plain sailing and public acceptance of its policy of neutrality, carried out VERY strict censorship of the press so NO war news of any sort was reported in the Irish Press. Tho' with a land border with the UK, across into Northern Ireland, It got across. And the BBC could be received on the radio. BUT the press was always "pushing the envelope"....Irish citizens who were known to have been killed fighting in the British forces were reported in death notices or obituries as having "died of lead poisoning" to get round the censors. Well, there IS a lot of lead in a bullet lol

A Fraction of a Fraction of the Irish population was "republican" i.e pro-IRA in those days, and even inside the IRA there was division over involving the Germans. The Abwehr made several really poor attempts to insert agents into ireland to link up with the IRA, but that organisation was 1/ riddled with informers and 2/ very broken and divided after waves of internments by the Irish government. Some were actively involved in hiding and planning with German agents but most just wanted to ride out the government's very comprehensive arrest programs. See Erno Stefan's EXCELLENT "Spies in Ireland" for full details. I mean....landing an anti-British INDIAN NATIONALIST in a turban into rural Ireland at a time when there was NO Asian population at all? Land two agents off a uboat with instructions to catch a train at a nearby railway station...where they were arrested, basically because there hadn't been a train for TWENTY YEARS at the DISUSED station LMAO

As a NATION and Empire, Hitler had a great respect for BRITAIN, but not for the individual British Tommy. The campaign in France hadn't done much to bolster the impression of the capabilities of the British Soldier except for the last ten days of the Dunkirk rearguard. And later in the war, after colonial troops - Anzacs and Indians - had held Tobruk fro three months until relieved ..and later British soldiers held it for THREE DAYS, the German High Command including Hitler didn't have much respect. Even CHURCHILL didn't, the fall of Trobruk really hit him hard. His secretary John Colville remembered him being reduced to tears by that news and the let-down.

Conversely, the Germans had a VERY high regard for the Scottish, who showed greater fighting spirit than other British soldiers except the excellently-trained and disciplined troops of the regulars in '39 and the Guards regiments. And they were regarded as generally being much more physically fit that the average Tommy.

phylo

[redcoat]

Hmmmm....
And later in the war, after colonial troops - Anzacs and Indians - had held Tobruk fro three months until relieved ..and later British soldiers held it for THREE DAYS,

A few points about the second defence of Toburk.

Firstly, the defences around Trobruk had been stripped for use in other battles.

Secondly, the commanders of the 8th army didn't want to defend Trobruk the second time around, they knew the state of the defences. It was only due to Churchills insistance that a defence was attempted at the last minute.

Thirdly, the majority of the defenders weren't British, but South African.

[phylo_roadking]

The materiel had been stripped from the town, thats true - after the initial defence and relief the artillery and tank units there moved on. BUT the defences themselves were NOT stripped - all they had to do and did do was spend a couple of days digging out the sand! This is confirmed in several unit diaries I've seen. There were actually more tanks and a more balanced artillery mix in Tobruk the second time around, better numbers of antitank guns, compared to 25pdrs firing solid shot as first time around, less reliance on captured Italian gun etc. The defenders were actually in a BETTER shape to face Rommel second time around....first time it took months to develop their defences, while Rommel sat outside and wasted men tanks and supplies trying to break in. This time they inherited them fully formed, the same defences that had held out and confounded the DAK and their Italian allies. Second time around Rommel "bounced" the garrison and threw everything he had against them, and was as suprised as anyone when the lines punctured...given that he was at this point right at the end of his supply lines and hadn't delayed too long to build up logistics. EVERYONE including Rommel expected another protracted siege....

phylo

[Handzar]

Certian parts of england were regarded by Hitler as racially equal.
Hitler went easy on england, because when he conquered it he wanted to make it his ally.

Correct me if I'm wrong but scotts , irish and some brits are gaelic or celtic. Because you speak a western germanic language you're a sub group of the Nordic Race.

Hitler preffered all Germanics who spoke German and were of Germanic ancestry over others who were slightly different.
For example WW1 E.Prussia, Germany, 95% of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (czech and ukranian teritories=nonAryan) was later labeled as "Aryan" by either Himmler or Hitler.

And yes Bosnia was labeled Aryan too early in 1942 by Himmler, Handschar's early name was SS-Freiwillige not Waffen der SS.
Just FYI.



Hitler didn't need reacially equal people to be against him, he swore to destroy them on a number of occasions.
Out of the whole british empire , 75 were willing to sign up for the SS and make a statement about UK, and they were all POWs.
And two more volunteers from ireland.

Considering the facts, UK was 99.9% anti-Fascist and proved it. If it was conquered , it would be like France, still trying to resist.
because there were rumors that churchill was partly jewish.


People who were from Scandinavia, the most racially fit people for the SS, ignored Hitler , less than 5-10.000 from Scandinavia signed up.

I hope that answered your question about racial standings of the Third Reich.

[Cott Tiger]

Hitler went easy on england, because when he conquered it he wanted to make it his ally.

I think you would find the people in the East End of London, Coventry and Hull (amongst many others) may well have disagreed with you on that one.

Hitler didn’t go easy on Britain. Britain offered better organized and vastly more effective resistance than Belgian, Holland, Poland, and France. Britain of course also had the advantage of being an Island. It also had a far superior Navy and its air force had a fighter command equal to anything the Luftwaffe could throw at it.

Given the opportunity Hitler would have been as harsh on Britain as it would any of the other occupied territories in Western Europe.

[phylo_roadking]

Saying that Gaelic/Gallic/Celtic stock is Aryan in the simplified logic like saying theyre Aryan because theyre not slavs and not jewish! Different racial origins.

So 75 citizens of the British Empire joined the Freikorps? As only FIVE British joined I'm assuming the rest were from the Empire's colonies LOL

phylo

[Handzar]

For God's sake , little Albania contributed more alone than all those from brit colonies. there has been very very little volunteers from those colonies, 5 from each at most.

[phylo_roadking]

In eastern Europe, far more from among captured British prisoners of war, you had very clear options of joining the Nazi machine to be anti-communist, or maybe pro-monarchist, depending on the country. Look at at the different flavours of Resistance and Counter-Resistance in Yugoslavia, for example.

Of the five British volunteers, all were petty or not so petty criminals and very pooer speciemins of soldiery! joining the freikorps as the war went to its obvious conclusion was possibly more attractive to them than what was waiting on their return to either Britain or British Military justice lol
phylo

[Handzar]

the leader of your brit ss legion was captured after the war.
I find this next stuff beyond funny!

http://members.aol.com/sturmpnzr/reenactimages.htm

I might've mentioned this earler somewhere.

today there are thousands of brits re-enacting for 75 SS men.
thousands that are proud of the "acheivements" of some lone 75.
haha and where did this guy get an MP44 and his two tank kills?

http://members.aol.com/sturmpnzr/photos.htm

and there are 5 photos available.