Allied forced deportation of anti-Communists. 1945.

[Jez]

Can anyone give there opinion on this guy's interpretation of these events.

http://www.bu.edu/jeremymb/papers/paper-y1.htm

Regards, Jez

[Jez]

Does anyone have anymore information on this piece from the final analysis of this guy's interpretation?

In this topsy-turvy Russian world, it would not be surprising if the fate of the Cossacks and even of the Vlasovites came to be seen in a new light, just as terrorists in the old colonial regimes were reborn as freedom fighters when independence came to their countries. It was, after all, these anti-Soviet Russians who saved Prague from destruction by SS units in the last days of the war.

I thought it was remnants of Army Group Centre here and only the 1st KONR division temporarily helped the Czech uprising in Prague?

What SS units were involved?

Was there an order to destroy Prague?

Regards, Jez

[Dackelstaffel]

Hi,

I've read that some units of the 20 Waffen Grenadier Division des SS Estand, or 20 SS PzGr Estland, were at Prague in may 1945.
maybe it could help you.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Jez,

Happy New Year.

I have read a good chunk of your suggested site.

The writer seems to be under the impression that there was some sort of legal obligation on the part of the Anglo-Americans to give Soviet citizens captured in German uniform US or British citizenship and that to hand them over to the USSR was to betray them.

This is to turn reality on its head. For whatever reason, good or bad, these men had betrayed their state by wearing the enemy's uniform and the Anglo-Americans were under no obligation whatsoever to allow them to settle in the West.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Opa]

Well, international law clearly mandated that POWs are to be treated according to their uniform--Hence these POWs were to be treated as captured German soldiers and left in Germany. This was esp. so for the "White Russian" exiles living there since 1920, or the Balts, who had ben independent. For more details about the legal issue, see Mark Elliott, Pawns of Yalta: Soviet Refugees and America's Role in their Repatriation (Univ of Illinois Press 1982)

But, as in so many cases, juvenile crusaderism blinded the FDRites to the law, as well as decency and humanity, and so Truman was forced to send these poor men to their deaths (they had "betrayed" Stalinist Russia, for Chrissake!). And the act was also short-sighted, for just a few years later Stalin was our foe (how could it have been otherwise--capitalism and communism do not mix, and both are agressive, monotheistic creeds), and a few million staunch anti-communists useful. But as usual, our government does not think beyond the next year, and hopes that the chunky size of the country will save it from its mistakes. So far this dinosaur-type strategy has worked, I hope it will continue to do so until I'm old and gone, but I fear it won't forever.

There were two battalions of Ukrainians and 1 of Turkestani soldiers in the 295. Division in Stalingrad, in which my grandfather served as the head of the medical services. He got on well with his Ukrainian medics. May their souls rest in peace.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Opa,

Two points.

Firstly, I agree with you on the point about the White Russian exiles. They had never been Soviet citizens and so to send them to the USSR in 1945 was, in my opinion, wrong. I have said this before on Feldgrau.

However, the vast majority of the men in question were Soviet citizens and their repatriation was entirely legitimate, tragic though we now know the results were with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. With regard to uniform - to wear the enemy's uniform is contrary to the laws of war and is considered treachery in every country without exception.

[Dackelstaffel]

Hi,

"Treason is just a question of date". What about for Estonians, Latvians or a Lithuanians ... did they commit treason ?
Imagine the situation of a man born in Vilnius ( Vilnius belonged to Poland at this time ). Maybe born in the russian empire, pole until 1939.
Mobilized in the pole army in 1939, he fleed to lithuania and was mobilized in the lithuanian army. In 1940, he became soviet citizen and was mobilized in the red army. In 1941, he was captured by the germans. Released from his POW camp, he worked in a german organisation like the NSKK. In 1945 what is his situation.
Wearing a enemy uniform several times in several countries :
When did he betray ?
Where did he betray ?
Who did he betray ?
What did he betray ?
Does anybody remember this romanian book called : "The 25th hours".

So long.

[Mats]

Hello,

In addition to what has been said by the previous posters let me just clarify that citizens of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania did not become "Soviet citizens" when their respective countries were occupied and annexed by the USSR in 1940. The Soviet annexation of the three nations was never officially recognised by USA, Great Britain, or any other Western democracy (the only exception being Sweden). The diplomatic missions of the three countries in USA and UK continued their activities throughout the period of illegal occupation by the Soviet Union from 1940 to 1991 and the US authorities recognised the diplomatic missions as the legal representatives of the respective nations.

How POWs in "enemy uniform" should be treated is a separate topic, but the Western occupying powers had no legal basis to forcibly hand over POWs of Estonian, Latvian or Lithuanian citizenship to Soviet authorities because such an act would not have constituted "repatriation" (as USSR was a third party, not their country of origin). Indeed this is what happened in most cases, i.e., the majority of Estonians and Latvians who had served in the German armed forces and were fortunate enough to make their way West and surrender to the Americans or British were not forcibly handed over to the Soviets. On the fewer occasions were that happened the officers of the Western occupying powers acted based on their "conventional wisdom" sans the fine knowledge of their respective governments' official policy.

Cheers,
Mats

[Dackelstaffel]

Hi,

Sorry Mats but I have forgotten the "" when I was writing become a soviet citizen. But my post was to show that just an ordinary man could be taken in the dramatic turmoils of history. Something like a greek tragedy.

So long.

[Jez]

I've just thought of something.

Wasn't Ukriane, Belo Russia, the Caucusus states and the Crimea also occupied by the Soviets in the twenties and all of these were suppresed and terrorised populations wanting independance?


Regards, Jez

[sid guttridge]

Hi Mats,

A very well informed post.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Dackelstaffel,

I agree that an individual can, indeed, be caught up in the coils of history as if in a Greek tragedy outside his control. However, why does this mean that somebody else has to be to blame? Surely they, too, might be caught up in their own uncontrolable personal tragedy?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Jez,

The Soviet republics you mention differ from the Baltic States, which were internationally recognised as independent between the wars (even by the USSR) and were never later recognised as Soviet republics by the Western Allies, as Mats rightly points out.

The Soviet republics you mentioned were recognised components of the old Russian Empire and passed into the Soviet Union without any intervening period of international recognition. They thus had different legal status in Western Allied eyes.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Dackelstaffel]

To Sid,

Hi,

Sorry to have been misunderstood ( I hope it is the simple past of to understand) but my post was just an extreme example. But I think always about a lithuanian born under the russian empire in Vilnius. Something like the romanian novel "the 25th hour".


So long. Mironton, mironton, mirontaine...