Hajj Amin al-Husseini

Foreign volunteers, collaboration and Axis Allies 1939-1945.

Moderator: George Lepre

User avatar
Dejan
Banned
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:39 am
Location: Vancouver

Hajj Amin al-Husseini

Post by Dejan »

empty entry
Last edited by Dejan on Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of our liberty
User avatar
Arne
Contributor
Posts: 337
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:15 am
Location: Heart of the Ruhr Valley
Contact:

Post by Arne »

Wasn't he the last prominent person to be flown out of the Reich to Switzerland in 1945?
User avatar
croat
Supporter
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:40 am
Location: Canada

Bosnian Muslim Legions?

Post by croat »

"...and organized the Bosnian Muslim legions of the Waffen SS, hunting down Serbs, Jews & 'Gypsies.'"

There was only one active division of the Waffen SS that consisted of Bosnian Muslims - the 13th "Handschar" Division. The division was committed as combat troops to anti-partisan duty in north-eastern Bosnia until late in the war, when the Bosnians were released from duty.
It is the inherent right of every nation to have its own nation state.
User avatar
Dejan
Banned
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:39 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by Dejan »

entry 1
Last edited by Dejan on Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of our liberty
User avatar
Dejan
Banned
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:39 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by Dejan »

entry 2
Last edited by Dejan on Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of our liberty
User avatar
Dejan
Banned
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:39 am
Location: Vancouver

Hajj Amin al-Husseini

Post by Dejan »

no entry
Last edited by Dejan on Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of our liberty
User avatar
croat
Supporter
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:40 am
Location: Canada

Post by croat »

Dejan wrote: Regarding the Handzhar division, the "Encyclopedia of the Holocaust" writes:

"These Muslim volunteer units, called Hanjar (sword), were put in Waffen-SS units, fought Yugoslav partisans in Bosnia, and carried out police and security duties in Hungary. They participated in the massacre of civilians in Bosnia and volunteered to join in the hunt for Jews in Croatia..."
-- Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, Edition 1990, Volume 2, page 707 :?
What is the source the "Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust" used for this information? They have either simplified information on the division, or are outright incorrect in their assertions. For example, the division, as such, did not even exist anymore once they left Bosnia - only a kampfgruppe, consisting of the German cadre, served in Hungary. The division never served in Croatia proper, therefore their volunteering to "hunt for Jews" could not have happened. When and where did these "massacres of civilians in Bosnia" occur? Thorough research has produced the division's entire war record, which did not include any 'massacres'. Please refer to the single unbiased and properly researched work on the topic of "Handschar", George Lepre's book. Please also note his list of sources for further research. The "Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust" is a poor substitute for unbiased research on a sensitive matter.
It is the inherent right of every nation to have its own nation state.
User avatar
Edelweiss.
Supporter
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 1:48 pm
Location: UK

Post by Edelweiss. »

Croat is correct. For the most part, Handschar (or is it Handzhar?) was an effective anti-partisan unit and garrison unit, and only when told to move out into Hungary did some members of the division refuse to go. Concerning war crimes, what evidence is there to suggest that this division was any worse than the partisans they fought against? I do not doubt that individual men of the division were implicated in excesses, but with respect, this was hardly a unique characteristic, no matter what theatre of war one happened to find themself in. Claims that the division was "prone to atrocities" seem to be propaganda spouted by the communists/Titoists after the war.

Here's a snippet from this site:
In conclusion, one must say that the "Handschar" Division was certainly not a top-of-the line, elite SS unit. However, when engaged in the areas and battles its men were promised to fight in (that is, in Bosnia, against Communist forces) the division fought well. Certainly, the majority of claims in much of the WW2 literature that the "Handschar" was "bad, prone to attrocities" etc, as claims by authors who have not studied the subject fully, but rather parrot one another without proper research. Men of the "Handschar" won 5 Knight's Crosses, 5 Crosses in Gold, and 1 Cross in Silver.
Croat, perhaps you can answer this question. Was there ever any friction between the Catholic Croatian element of the division, and the Muslim element?

Thanks.

Regards,
Edelweiss
Last edited by Edelweiss. on Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
croat
Supporter
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:40 am
Location: Canada

Post by croat »

Hello Edelweiss:

Thank you for your note. I certainly agree that individual acts of cruelty probably occurred from members of the division, which is hardly unique in a guerilla war, or any war for that matter. I do not think any side or any unit was imune from this.

The division's official name was "Handschar" (German spelling), which is spelled "Handzar" in Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian.

I have not come accross any mention of friction between the Muslims and the Catholics that served in the division (only about 10% of the total rank and file were Catholic Croats). Overall, the Muslim population of Bosnia had good relations with the Catholic Croats during WW2, and I think this carried-over into the division's membership as well. It is of interest, though, that the main organizer of the mutiny in France was one of the Catholic members, who was actually a Communist plant.

Best regards from Canada.
It is the inherent right of every nation to have its own nation state.
User avatar
Edelweiss.
Supporter
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 1:48 pm
Location: UK

Post by Edelweiss. »

Thanks for your reply. Interesting about the mutiny.

I realise that it would take a thread in itself to describe the differences between the various ethnicities in the Balkan/South Eastern region of Europe. Suffice to say many Croats had many good reasons for taking up arms with, or alongside the Germans.

Regards from Merry Olde England,
Edelweiss
User avatar
nino
Supporter
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:40 pm
Location: somewhere in the globe
Contact:

handschar

Post by nino »

Hi,

I think Lepre write in his book that 'Handschar' also operated in Croatia proper before they across to Bosnia, i.e. Bosut area. According the war documents there were incidents during the division stay in that area, where Serbian civilians were massacred in a village at the area (Bela Crkva). The partisan and some historians accused the Handschar as the perperators. Lepre himself, while didn't agree with the accusation, couldn't aside it.
In his book Lepre also give some indications that there are conflicts of interest between the Catholic and Muslim members in the division, especially because the Muslim want to made the division as a tool for a Bosnia-Hercegovina protectorate under the Nazi. So, their aims were against the unity of the NDH.

Regards,
Nino
User avatar
Dejan
Banned
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:39 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by Dejan »

no entry
Last edited by Dejan on Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of our liberty
User avatar
nino
Supporter
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:40 pm
Location: somewhere in the globe
Contact:

Post by nino »

I agree with you Dejan that only a small minority who always became the fanatics. In fact, that always be in every communities. Unfortunately, because the majority always silent or act like lambs, every crimes that the fanatics done got their's open or hidden permissions--like or not.

Regards,
Nino
George Lepre
Moderator
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:55 pm
Location: United States

Re: handschar

Post by George Lepre »

nino wrote:According the war documents there were incidents during the division stay in that area, where Serbian civilians were massacred in a village at the area (Bela Crkva). The partisan and some historians accused the Handschar as the perperators. Lepre himself, while didn't agree with the accusation, couldn't aside it.
Absolutely false.

I learned of killings in Bela Crkva from the diary of a GERMAN officer, Joerg Deh. He wrote in his diary that the "enemy had fled, having murdered the town's inhabitants." I looked at the German operations order for Unternehmen Wegweiser and found that a Handschar element was tasked with passing through the town several days before Deh's arrival and thought it to be important enough to warrant inclusion in the text. Deh, however, stated unequivocally that the Partisans were responsible. How he reached this conclusion (spent shell casings, refugee statements?) is unknown, but he was there, we were not. I also checked with the Zentralle Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen, the chief office that investigates Nazi crimes, and found nothing. Without an objective anthropological investigation, it is impossible to say who is responsible for these murders. What source proves that the Germans were responsible for Bela Crkva? No Partisan document in the Zbornik dokumenata book series even mentions it.

In post-war literature, a Yugoslav (Serbian) historian, Jeremija Jeso Peric, accused the Handschar Division of murder during Wegweiser. When I asked former division members about it, they (predicatably) denied it. In the absence of scientific spade work at the crime scene(s), no absolute conclusions can be made, although I'm sure the Balkan nationalists will no doubt continue to do so as they re-fight the Second World War on "Serbiana" and similar "highly-objective" media.

George Lepre
User avatar
nino
Supporter
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:40 pm
Location: somewhere in the globe
Contact:

apologize

Post by nino »

Dear Mr. Lepre,

Maybe you right, Sir.
Forgive me if I offended you. I only give my opinion. Of course, my opinion is not as good as your research.
Please, no hard feeling for me, OK?
And I will tell you that your book about the division is still the best....

:D
Nino
Post Reply