information on experimental aircraft and missile systems
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brendan-moloney
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information on experimental aircraft and missile systems
Hello im looking for information on any experimental aircraft and missile systems from the second world war. can anyone recomend a web site or a book witch is good and factual on information thanks.
Sir you are drunk:
madam you are ugly, but i will recover in the morning
Winston churchill.......
madam you are ugly, but i will recover in the morning
Winston churchill.......
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charlie don't surf
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Arvo L. V.
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Esteemed Brendan-Moloney;
Your query re German experimental a/c and missiles touches upon a most fascinating field of interest, for it can be discussed in a myriad of operational, technical and theoretical aspects alike. Given the herewith-afforded opportunity, please allow me to share the following thoughts with you re Germany’s developments of experimental a/c and missile systems. I apologize in advance, should the below cited paragraphs be in variance with the data available to other, more subject knowledgeable individuals.
That said, your questions focusing on experimental a/c are also somewhat challenging to answer. I opine that nearly every aircraft ever developed at some point in its early life was an “experimental” or “test-bed” prior to becoming full production models. I humbly submit that in one respect, an answer to your query can depend on what “experimental” is defined as. On a similar note, equally challenging to study are the German wartime efforts in producing fully operational missile systems. I suspect that your query focuses more along the lines of test-bed, concept models, and so on, so I will strive to do my best to discuss those aspects in this posting. It need be noted that for both fields of study, many aspects of the German successes still remain to be explored.
Background: To best understand how the Germans were able to develop so many technologically advanced and sophisticated weapons systems during the course of the Second World War, one must first understand what mechanisms permitted the Germans in the 1930’s and 1940’s to develop some top-notch military hardware. This means that one must have a solid understanding as to how and why German commercial and industrial products are almost always at the top of their class with great consistency and over a large span of time.
The answer, in part, lies in the Germans’ respect for academia in general and for accepting practical results. R&D has always been highly valued in German society, but the Nationalist Socialist government really pushed these assets to the edge of their limits, especially if the topic involved military research. While the technical people have alwalys been honored in Germany, during the Third Reich era, the practical technician were truly given a chance to shine, like never before.
For long-term business success, especially in the military hardware sector, the business in question must really have the latest, the most reliable and the best capabilities available for it customers. Here, the Germans were among the world’s best in their classes. German industrial products consistently met or exceeded their customers’ expectations all around the world. And why was this so? In part, because German industrial and political leaders as well as its workers alike, valued good quality, workmanship and technical innovation above most everything else.
It also need be noted that after 1918, the Versailles Treaty only helped to increase the way the German industrial sector valued R&D. After 1919, German (military) businesses had to figure out how to best circumvent the letter of the Versailles law - but at the same time, still adhere to its limitations. For example, Germany was officially proscribed from developing and constructing military airplanes, but the treaty made no provisions on building and developing gliders. Thus, in Germany, this field of study led to many advances in civilian and military aviation hardware and software development, which after 1935, were then quickly applied to the mass production of new fighters and bombers for the new Luftwaffe.
Another valuable tool aiding the German military hardware development were the concepts behind the “Heereswaffenamt Prüfwesen” - the Army Testing Office, an entity first established during the Kaiser’s army. In short, these types of site were specifically dedicated to the testing and ongoing development/refinement of weapons systems of all shapes and sizes. This concept continued in full during the Weimar area (though greatly shielded from the general public and Allied inspection teams) as well as in the Third Reich.
In the Third Reich, these facilities, such as, but not limited to the Waffen Forschungsamt (Wa F) - established as a ballistics R&D institute; the Marine-Waffenamt - Naval Testing Office, established to develop naval weapons systems; the Luftfahrtforschungsanstalt Hermann Göring - one of the leading top-secret aviation research centers of the Reich; the Technische Akademie der Luftwaffe, etc., served the same general function they did in the Kaisers day - test each weapon and ensure that Germany got the most bang for the buck from each. Each major weapons development/testing component naturally contained many sub-components, such as, but not limited to Versuchsanstalten, Forschungsentwicklungsanstalten, Prüfungstellen, etc.
In addition to the internal facilities, Germany also maintained many military hardware and military science development sites abroad. Some were located in the Netherlands; many were located in the Soviet Union, a few in Sweden, etc. All of these facilities continued to help the Germany’s military and military-industrial sectors to increase their overall understanding of tomorrow’s generations of weapons systems. In everyday Third Reich jargon, Germany’s next-generations of weapons systems are often referred to as “Wunderwaffen”, which can include items such as pulse and jet propelled aircraft, intercontinental missiles, IR technologies, “wind cannons”, RADAR technologies, etc.
There is another angle that must be included in any discussion of German wonder weapons - political interference. Many of Germany’s Wunderwaffen, in both concept and in actual production, could have enjoyed far greater technical advancements and operational successes if it were not for the excessive interference by many Nationalist Socialist leaders, including one Adolf Hitler.
Aviation:
Though by no means all inclusive, the below cited list should help to illustrate the myriad of piston and jet engine aircraft, which were being developed in Germany during the war, especially towards the later stages (1943-1945). Some aircraft designs became fully operational; some designs never left the drawing boards.
Arado Ar 234 - world’s first operational jet bomber; numerous variants built
Arado E.580 - competitor to the “Volksjäger” project of 1944; E.580 was not built
Artur Sack As-1 - all circular wing a/c
Bachem Ba-349 “Natter” - rocket-powered interceptor
Blohm & Voss BV-212 - high-altitude fighter; competed with the FW-Ta 183
DFS-228 - rocket powered aircraft to attain supersonic flight
Dornier D-335 - potentially the world’s fastest piston engine fighter built
Fieseler Fi-103 - single seater, flying bomb
Focke-Wulf FW Ta-183 - high-altitude fighter; further developed in the MiG-15 and Saab-29
Focke-Wulf FW-03-10251 - vertical take-off coleopter
Focke-Wulf FW-03-10025 - high-altitude fighter
Focke-Wulf FW-03-10225 - long-range bomber
Focke-Wulf 1.000x1.000x1.000 - long-range bomber
Gotha Go-229 - See Ho-IX
Heinkel He-112V5 - world’s first rocket-powered a/c; later, the He-112 served as test-bed for the “Werner von Braun Interceptor”, a Vertical Take-Off a/c
Heinkel 162 - the “Volksjäger”, designed, build and made operational in 89 days
Heinkel He-178 - world’s first practical, thrust powered aircraft.
Heinkel He-280 - twin-engined, single seater, jet interceptor
Horten Ho-IX - flying wings
Junkers 287 - forward-swept wing bomber
Junkers P.128 - advanced fighter
Lippisch DM-1/DM-2 - near-sonic fighter
Messerschmitt Me-163 - world’s first operational rocket powered interceptor
Messerschmitt Me 262 - world’s first operational jet fighter-bomber; numerous variants built
Messerschmitt P.08.01 - flying wing bomber/transporter
Messerschmitt P.1101- jet fighter
Messerschmitt P.1100 - high-altitude fighter
Messerschmitt P.1111 - high-altitude fighter with swept-back wings
Sombold So-344 - escort fighter; carried by a host a/c into a combat area, then released
Weserflug P.1003 - VTOL a/c
Zeppelin “Rammer” - theoretical development only; rocket-powered glider used for ramming Allied a/c
The below list should also help to illustrate the myriad of missiles, which were being developed in Germany during the war. Some projects were duds, others, like the Henschel 293/294 family of glider bombs achieved great operational successes (the sinking of the Italian battleship “Roma” in 1943). Excluded from this list are items such as experimental or specialized artillery and anti-aircraft shells, rocket propelled ground weapons (such as the Panzerfaust/Panzerschreck), etc.
Aggregate-4/A-4 (V-2) - world’s first operational ballistic missile
Aggregate-4/A-4 “Wasserfall” - see EMW “Wasserfall”
Aggregate-4/A-4 “Taifun” - re-designed “Wassefall”
A-9/10 - designs for an intercontinental missile capable of reaching North America
Blohm & Voss L.10 "Friedensengel” - torpedo glider
Blohm & Voss BV-143 - air-to-surface missile
Blohm & Voss BV-246 “Hagelkorn” - glider bomb
EMW “Wasserfall/C-2” - surface-to-air missile; scaled-down version of the V-2; guided by ground based RADAR installations; developed into the U.S. “Nike” missiles
Fieseler Fi-103 (V-1) - officially code name “Kirschkern”, pulse engine, cruise missile
Henschel Hs 117H “Schmetterling” - surface-to-air missile
Henschel Hs-293 - air-to-air missile; TV camera for guidance experimented with
Henschel Hs-294 - anti-ship missile
Henschel Hs-295 - anti-ship missile; cancelled shortly after going into production
Henschel Hs-288 - anti-ship missile
Messerschmitt “Enzian” - unmanned, Me-163-like surface-to-air missile
R4M - wing mounted missiles
Rh.Z. 61/9 “Rheinboote” - unguided, 3 to 4-staged ballistic missile
Rheinmetall Borsig “Hecht” - surface-to-air missile, concept designs only
Rheinmetall Borsig “Feuerlilie” - surface-to-air missile; only two tested
Rheinmetall Borsig “Rheintochter” - surface-to-air missile; two-stage rockets
Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-1 “SD-1400X; Fritz-X”- see Henschel anti-ship bombs above
Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-4 - air-to-air missile
Zossen “Z-Gerät” - air-to-surface missile
As the above two lists indicate, the German military sector was ripe with many ideas for the next-generation of airplanes and missiles. Had the war run differently, many of the German Wunderwaffen projects may have become reality (which many did later as numerous German Wunderwaffen technologies were later incorporated into the military arsenals of all of the victorious Allied powers).
I hope that the above has been of some value to you. Thank you for the honor of your time.
Regards;
Arvo L. V.
Your query re German experimental a/c and missiles touches upon a most fascinating field of interest, for it can be discussed in a myriad of operational, technical and theoretical aspects alike. Given the herewith-afforded opportunity, please allow me to share the following thoughts with you re Germany’s developments of experimental a/c and missile systems. I apologize in advance, should the below cited paragraphs be in variance with the data available to other, more subject knowledgeable individuals.
That said, your questions focusing on experimental a/c are also somewhat challenging to answer. I opine that nearly every aircraft ever developed at some point in its early life was an “experimental” or “test-bed” prior to becoming full production models. I humbly submit that in one respect, an answer to your query can depend on what “experimental” is defined as. On a similar note, equally challenging to study are the German wartime efforts in producing fully operational missile systems. I suspect that your query focuses more along the lines of test-bed, concept models, and so on, so I will strive to do my best to discuss those aspects in this posting. It need be noted that for both fields of study, many aspects of the German successes still remain to be explored.
Background: To best understand how the Germans were able to develop so many technologically advanced and sophisticated weapons systems during the course of the Second World War, one must first understand what mechanisms permitted the Germans in the 1930’s and 1940’s to develop some top-notch military hardware. This means that one must have a solid understanding as to how and why German commercial and industrial products are almost always at the top of their class with great consistency and over a large span of time.
The answer, in part, lies in the Germans’ respect for academia in general and for accepting practical results. R&D has always been highly valued in German society, but the Nationalist Socialist government really pushed these assets to the edge of their limits, especially if the topic involved military research. While the technical people have alwalys been honored in Germany, during the Third Reich era, the practical technician were truly given a chance to shine, like never before.
For long-term business success, especially in the military hardware sector, the business in question must really have the latest, the most reliable and the best capabilities available for it customers. Here, the Germans were among the world’s best in their classes. German industrial products consistently met or exceeded their customers’ expectations all around the world. And why was this so? In part, because German industrial and political leaders as well as its workers alike, valued good quality, workmanship and technical innovation above most everything else.
It also need be noted that after 1918, the Versailles Treaty only helped to increase the way the German industrial sector valued R&D. After 1919, German (military) businesses had to figure out how to best circumvent the letter of the Versailles law - but at the same time, still adhere to its limitations. For example, Germany was officially proscribed from developing and constructing military airplanes, but the treaty made no provisions on building and developing gliders. Thus, in Germany, this field of study led to many advances in civilian and military aviation hardware and software development, which after 1935, were then quickly applied to the mass production of new fighters and bombers for the new Luftwaffe.
Another valuable tool aiding the German military hardware development were the concepts behind the “Heereswaffenamt Prüfwesen” - the Army Testing Office, an entity first established during the Kaiser’s army. In short, these types of site were specifically dedicated to the testing and ongoing development/refinement of weapons systems of all shapes and sizes. This concept continued in full during the Weimar area (though greatly shielded from the general public and Allied inspection teams) as well as in the Third Reich.
In the Third Reich, these facilities, such as, but not limited to the Waffen Forschungsamt (Wa F) - established as a ballistics R&D institute; the Marine-Waffenamt - Naval Testing Office, established to develop naval weapons systems; the Luftfahrtforschungsanstalt Hermann Göring - one of the leading top-secret aviation research centers of the Reich; the Technische Akademie der Luftwaffe, etc., served the same general function they did in the Kaisers day - test each weapon and ensure that Germany got the most bang for the buck from each. Each major weapons development/testing component naturally contained many sub-components, such as, but not limited to Versuchsanstalten, Forschungsentwicklungsanstalten, Prüfungstellen, etc.
In addition to the internal facilities, Germany also maintained many military hardware and military science development sites abroad. Some were located in the Netherlands; many were located in the Soviet Union, a few in Sweden, etc. All of these facilities continued to help the Germany’s military and military-industrial sectors to increase their overall understanding of tomorrow’s generations of weapons systems. In everyday Third Reich jargon, Germany’s next-generations of weapons systems are often referred to as “Wunderwaffen”, which can include items such as pulse and jet propelled aircraft, intercontinental missiles, IR technologies, “wind cannons”, RADAR technologies, etc.
There is another angle that must be included in any discussion of German wonder weapons - political interference. Many of Germany’s Wunderwaffen, in both concept and in actual production, could have enjoyed far greater technical advancements and operational successes if it were not for the excessive interference by many Nationalist Socialist leaders, including one Adolf Hitler.
Aviation:
Though by no means all inclusive, the below cited list should help to illustrate the myriad of piston and jet engine aircraft, which were being developed in Germany during the war, especially towards the later stages (1943-1945). Some aircraft designs became fully operational; some designs never left the drawing boards.
Arado Ar 234 - world’s first operational jet bomber; numerous variants built
Arado E.580 - competitor to the “Volksjäger” project of 1944; E.580 was not built
Artur Sack As-1 - all circular wing a/c
Bachem Ba-349 “Natter” - rocket-powered interceptor
Blohm & Voss BV-212 - high-altitude fighter; competed with the FW-Ta 183
DFS-228 - rocket powered aircraft to attain supersonic flight
Dornier D-335 - potentially the world’s fastest piston engine fighter built
Fieseler Fi-103 - single seater, flying bomb
Focke-Wulf FW Ta-183 - high-altitude fighter; further developed in the MiG-15 and Saab-29
Focke-Wulf FW-03-10251 - vertical take-off coleopter
Focke-Wulf FW-03-10025 - high-altitude fighter
Focke-Wulf FW-03-10225 - long-range bomber
Focke-Wulf 1.000x1.000x1.000 - long-range bomber
Gotha Go-229 - See Ho-IX
Heinkel He-112V5 - world’s first rocket-powered a/c; later, the He-112 served as test-bed for the “Werner von Braun Interceptor”, a Vertical Take-Off a/c
Heinkel 162 - the “Volksjäger”, designed, build and made operational in 89 days
Heinkel He-178 - world’s first practical, thrust powered aircraft.
Heinkel He-280 - twin-engined, single seater, jet interceptor
Horten Ho-IX - flying wings
Junkers 287 - forward-swept wing bomber
Junkers P.128 - advanced fighter
Lippisch DM-1/DM-2 - near-sonic fighter
Messerschmitt Me-163 - world’s first operational rocket powered interceptor
Messerschmitt Me 262 - world’s first operational jet fighter-bomber; numerous variants built
Messerschmitt P.08.01 - flying wing bomber/transporter
Messerschmitt P.1101- jet fighter
Messerschmitt P.1100 - high-altitude fighter
Messerschmitt P.1111 - high-altitude fighter with swept-back wings
Sombold So-344 - escort fighter; carried by a host a/c into a combat area, then released
Weserflug P.1003 - VTOL a/c
Zeppelin “Rammer” - theoretical development only; rocket-powered glider used for ramming Allied a/c
The below list should also help to illustrate the myriad of missiles, which were being developed in Germany during the war. Some projects were duds, others, like the Henschel 293/294 family of glider bombs achieved great operational successes (the sinking of the Italian battleship “Roma” in 1943). Excluded from this list are items such as experimental or specialized artillery and anti-aircraft shells, rocket propelled ground weapons (such as the Panzerfaust/Panzerschreck), etc.
Aggregate-4/A-4 (V-2) - world’s first operational ballistic missile
Aggregate-4/A-4 “Wasserfall” - see EMW “Wasserfall”
Aggregate-4/A-4 “Taifun” - re-designed “Wassefall”
A-9/10 - designs for an intercontinental missile capable of reaching North America
Blohm & Voss L.10 "Friedensengel” - torpedo glider
Blohm & Voss BV-143 - air-to-surface missile
Blohm & Voss BV-246 “Hagelkorn” - glider bomb
EMW “Wasserfall/C-2” - surface-to-air missile; scaled-down version of the V-2; guided by ground based RADAR installations; developed into the U.S. “Nike” missiles
Fieseler Fi-103 (V-1) - officially code name “Kirschkern”, pulse engine, cruise missile
Henschel Hs 117H “Schmetterling” - surface-to-air missile
Henschel Hs-293 - air-to-air missile; TV camera for guidance experimented with
Henschel Hs-294 - anti-ship missile
Henschel Hs-295 - anti-ship missile; cancelled shortly after going into production
Henschel Hs-288 - anti-ship missile
Messerschmitt “Enzian” - unmanned, Me-163-like surface-to-air missile
R4M - wing mounted missiles
Rh.Z. 61/9 “Rheinboote” - unguided, 3 to 4-staged ballistic missile
Rheinmetall Borsig “Hecht” - surface-to-air missile, concept designs only
Rheinmetall Borsig “Feuerlilie” - surface-to-air missile; only two tested
Rheinmetall Borsig “Rheintochter” - surface-to-air missile; two-stage rockets
Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-1 “SD-1400X; Fritz-X”- see Henschel anti-ship bombs above
Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-4 - air-to-air missile
Zossen “Z-Gerät” - air-to-surface missile
As the above two lists indicate, the German military sector was ripe with many ideas for the next-generation of airplanes and missiles. Had the war run differently, many of the German Wunderwaffen projects may have become reality (which many did later as numerous German Wunderwaffen technologies were later incorporated into the military arsenals of all of the victorious Allied powers).
I hope that the above has been of some value to you. Thank you for the honor of your time.
Regards;
Arvo L. V.
-
brendan-moloney
- New Member
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 4:39 pm
- Location: erith, south east london in the uk
Thank you
Thank you for the post and the time it took to wright. I have been interested in the r/d aspect of the german millitary machine for some time but there seems to be little if nothing on the web and in the shops.
The main thrust of my interest is the evolution of these systems such as the me 262 if germany had won a stale mate in the war what angle would the germans have taken with their r/d and the weapons system to match.
How soon would the german mitary develop sattlites and orbital space flight.
would have the space race happened sooner raver than later and how would the world look today. for some one who left school with two gcse,s and who has allways had a deep love for history from a very young age i
have to say this forum is open and friendley and should be shown and used by school children and tutors as an eductioal tool.
The main thrust of my interest is the evolution of these systems such as the me 262 if germany had won a stale mate in the war what angle would the germans have taken with their r/d and the weapons system to match.
How soon would the german mitary develop sattlites and orbital space flight.
would have the space race happened sooner raver than later and how would the world look today. for some one who left school with two gcse,s and who has allways had a deep love for history from a very young age i
have to say this forum is open and friendley and should be shown and used by school children and tutors as an eductioal tool.
Sir you are drunk:
madam you are ugly, but i will recover in the morning
Winston churchill.......
madam you are ugly, but i will recover in the morning
Winston churchill.......
-
brendan-moloney
- New Member
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 4:39 pm
- Location: erith, south east london in the uk
SORRY FOR THE SPELLING
Sorry for the spelling im dislexick can you tell.
Sir you are drunk:
madam you are ugly, but i will recover in the morning
Winston churchill.......
madam you are ugly, but i will recover in the morning
Winston churchill.......
-
Derek Sullivan
- New Member
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 9:25 am
- Location: Merseyside U.K.
In Arvo L V s, very informative reply he states that the hs293 was a air to air
missile! I have compiled quite a dossier on Glider Bombs but have only found the 293 and the Fritz to have been used for Air to Ship and Ground
(Mainly bridges and AC)
I hve been trying to compile a list of hits and would be pleased for any inf on Air to Air
missile! I have compiled quite a dossier on Glider Bombs but have only found the 293 and the Fritz to have been used for Air to Ship and Ground
(Mainly bridges and AC)
I hve been trying to compile a list of hits and would be pleased for any inf on Air to Air
Regards from Merseyside U.K.
Derek Sullivan
Derek Sullivan
The main German one was the R4M. I know it was used in the Me-262 and it did score right towards the end of the war. Also the Russians did knock down a few planes using Air to Air.Derek Sullivan wrote:In Arvo L V s, very informative reply he states that the hs293 was a air to air
missile! I have compiled quite a dossier on Glider Bombs but have only found the 293 and the Fritz to have been used for Air to Ship and Ground
(Mainly bridges and AC)
I hve been trying to compile a list of hits and would be pleased for any inf on Air to Air
Just for interest I was stunned that the French used them in WW1 against balloons.
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Wurger
- Contributor
- Posts: 364
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 8:19 am
- Location: Establishing a 5th column in your country . . .
Wunderwaffen - V-1/V-2
If you're looking for specific V-1 and V-2 information, you might want to try to track down the book published by Monogram Aviation Publications a couple of years back. Like all of their later-day stuff, the book was well written, well-illustrated, and comprehensive. Unfortunately, like all their books, it was a limited run publication, and thus might be hard to find.
Hope that is some help.
Regards,
Wurger
Hope that is some help.
Regards,
Wurger
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Sebastian Pye
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