It is just a simple question but every time I ask it
it starts bitter FLAMEWARS all off topic.So..........
were there Poles in the 14SS if so, how many do you think
Thank You,Pawel
Poles in the 14SS
Moderator: George Lepre
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sid guttridge
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Hi Pawel-202,
It depends what you mean by "Poles".
The division was raised in Galicia largely from ethnic Ukrainians.
At that time the Germans considered Galicia part of the Reich and so technically they were German subjects in German eyes.
However, the USSR had seized most of Galicia off Poland in September 1939 and so presumably considered the division's manpower to be largely Soviet citizens.
However, the Polish government in exile had never recognised either the Russian or German claims to Galicia and still considered them Poles.
However, the men of the division considered themselves Ukrainian nationalists.
Take your pick.
Cheers,
Sid.
It depends what you mean by "Poles".
The division was raised in Galicia largely from ethnic Ukrainians.
At that time the Germans considered Galicia part of the Reich and so technically they were German subjects in German eyes.
However, the USSR had seized most of Galicia off Poland in September 1939 and so presumably considered the division's manpower to be largely Soviet citizens.
However, the Polish government in exile had never recognised either the Russian or German claims to Galicia and still considered them Poles.
However, the men of the division considered themselves Ukrainian nationalists.
Take your pick.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Wurger
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- Location: Establishing a 5th column in your country . . .
After nearly two years on my own research into the Division, my conclusions agree with Sid's. The men of the 14th SS Grenadiers (in its first incarnation) were mostly from Galicia, which was part of pre-war Poland. So, nationally, they would be considered Poles. It was this arguement which allowed surviving members to avoid being re-patriated to the USSR (and no doubt sent to Siberia) after the war.
Ethnically, however, they were Ukrainians and measures were taken during the recruitment process to ensure that the Division's membership was homogeneously western Ukrainian. These measures excluded not only Poles, but also eastern Ukrainians from joining. Thus, western Ukrainians formerly serving in the Polish Army were allowed to join the Division, while their former Polish comrades at arms were prohibited.
Michael Melnyk, who has recently published a great book on the Ukrainian Division, does post here on occasion, so maybe he can provide some further clarification.
Regards,
Wurger - Resident Leftist Thug
Ethnically, however, they were Ukrainians and measures were taken during the recruitment process to ensure that the Division's membership was homogeneously western Ukrainian. These measures excluded not only Poles, but also eastern Ukrainians from joining. Thus, western Ukrainians formerly serving in the Polish Army were allowed to join the Division, while their former Polish comrades at arms were prohibited.
Michael Melnyk, who has recently published a great book on the Ukrainian Division, does post here on occasion, so maybe he can provide some further clarification.
Regards,
Wurger - Resident Leftist Thug
But facts are facts-
sid guttridge
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Hi Pawel-202,
You may have achieved a Feldgrau landmark by being the first person to admit publicly on line to being wrong!
This will probably not be an example widely followed, because too many of us here on Feldgrau are more worried about losing face than establishing the facts.
Yours,
the invariably correct and impeccably accurate,
Sid.
You may have achieved a Feldgrau landmark by being the first person to admit publicly on line to being wrong!
This will probably not be an example widely followed, because too many of us here on Feldgrau are more worried about losing face than establishing the facts.
Yours,
the invariably correct and impeccably accurate,
Sid.
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J.P. Slovjanski
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Norman aus Lemberg
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Hold on to that vodka Pawel! 
I believe the question was "Were there any Poles in 14th SS", and not "can 14th SS be considered Polish". After reading up memuars I did came across a mentioning of one volunteer who was ethnic pole , I still don't know how he choose to volunteer. Further more if you check the lists of volunteers, you will find that there is a number of people with very polish names - those could be from mixed Ukr. Pol. families or from ukrainianized Poles. Also some volksdeutsche form Poland also ended up in division.
Cheers to Zubrowka!
I believe the question was "Were there any Poles in 14th SS", and not "can 14th SS be considered Polish". After reading up memuars I did came across a mentioning of one volunteer who was ethnic pole , I still don't know how he choose to volunteer. Further more if you check the lists of volunteers, you will find that there is a number of people with very polish names - those could be from mixed Ukr. Pol. families or from ukrainianized Poles. Also some volksdeutsche form Poland also ended up in division.
Cheers to Zubrowka!
It's OK I was wrong I didnt check my facts,thought with my heart
instead of my brain when I took the bet.Its just I assumed with 600.000 Poles living in the Ukr. at least 2% would have joined. Plus the fact that the Polish gov. in exile help them escape the Red army
We (J.P & I) have been fighting this one out for almost 7 months
throwing facts and"what ifs" at each other till I finily gave in
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!...BUT I HAVE A NEW BET.
I say Slovoks fought in Stalingrad he says no
====VODKA 4 PAWEL. YES!YES!YES!====
instead of my brain when I took the bet.Its just I assumed with 600.000 Poles living in the Ukr. at least 2% would have joined. Plus the fact that the Polish gov. in exile help them escape the Red army
We (J.P & I) have been fighting this one out for almost 7 months
throwing facts and"what ifs" at each other till I finily gave in
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!...BUT I HAVE A NEW BET.
I say Slovoks fought in Stalingrad he says no
====VODKA 4 PAWEL. YES!YES!YES!====
=Treu-Tapher-Gehorsam=
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sid guttridge
- on "time out"
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Hi Pawel-202,
I think you have lost again. It was Croats at Stalingrad.
During the period of the battle of Stalingrad the Slovak Rapid was in the western Caucasus Mountains while the Slovak Security Division was in the Ukraine just south of the Pripet Marshes. Definitely no Slovak units at Stalingrad.
Cheers,
Sid.
I think you have lost again. It was Croats at Stalingrad.
During the period of the battle of Stalingrad the Slovak Rapid was in the western Caucasus Mountains while the Slovak Security Division was in the Ukraine just south of the Pripet Marshes. Definitely no Slovak units at Stalingrad.
Cheers,
Sid.
TO:MODERATOR
FROM: PAWEL_202
I want ..no DEMAND that Sid G. be banned for spreading
false infromati................WHOU! I was starting to post
just like a Feldgrau regular, sorry Sid
but in truth Im still trying to prove my "bet"
and I thank you for your input
Pawel
===VODKA 4 PAWEL MAYBE,MAYBE,MAYBE===
FROM: PAWEL_202
I want ..no DEMAND that Sid G. be banned for spreading
false infromati................WHOU! I was starting to post
just like a Feldgrau regular, sorry Sid
but in truth Im still trying to prove my "bet"
and I thank you for your input
Pawel
===VODKA 4 PAWEL MAYBE,MAYBE,MAYBE===
=Treu-Tapher-Gehorsam=
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sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Pawel,
Good Luck.
However, if you want to turn a ready buck, my advice is to start with less ambitious and more easily verifiable bets. My top recommendations are:
1) The Germans defended Berlin in 1945.
2) The RAF contested the Battle of Britain in 1940.
3) It was Russians under siege at Leningrad.
Then a triumphant PAWEL can happily drown in a sea of Vodka.
Cheers,
Sid.
Good Luck.
However, if you want to turn a ready buck, my advice is to start with less ambitious and more easily verifiable bets. My top recommendations are:
1) The Germans defended Berlin in 1945.
2) The RAF contested the Battle of Britain in 1940.
3) It was Russians under siege at Leningrad.
Then a triumphant PAWEL can happily drown in a sea of Vodka.
Cheers,
Sid.
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laszlo.nemedi
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- Location: Budapest, Hungary
hmmm, are you sure?sid guttridge wrote:Hi Pawel,
Good Luck.
However, if you want to turn a ready buck, my advice is to start with less ambitious and more easily verifiable bets. My top recommendations are:
1) The Germans defended Berlin in 1945.
2) The RAF contested the Battle of Britain in 1940.
3) It was Russians under siege at Leningrad.
Then a triumphant PAWEL can happily drown in a sea of Vodka.
Cheers,
Sid.
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KampfgruppeMeyer
- Banned
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- Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2003 5:06 pm
- Location: Marina del Rey, CA 90292
i have admitted being wrong several timessid guttridge wrote:Hi Pawel-202,
You may have achieved a Feldgrau landmark by being the first person to admit publicly on line to being wrong!
This will probably not be an example widely followed, because too many of us here on Feldgrau are more worried about losing face than establishing the facts.
Yours,
the invariably correct and impeccably accurate,
Sid.
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue...
Poles in the 14 Galician Division
1. When the recruitment statutes for the Galician Division were originally issued by the German authorities in Galicia they specified "NO POLES".
2. However, the same document stated it was not necessary for them to have been born in Galicia but only resident there for some time, confirmation of which was to be provided by the village head, a system clearly open to abuse.
3. Galicia is a border area the population of which is mixed Ukrainian / Polish.
4. Only a few months after the recruitment programme had begun, in order to find the necessary manpower, the organisers contrived to maintain the momentum of the recuitment by extending the campaign from Galicia to other areas of the Generalgouvernement including the neighbouring provincial centres of the districts of Cracow and later Lublin. These were predominatly 'Polish' provinces. Later recruitment took place in the provinces of Cholm, and Hrubeshiv, which were also predominatly Polish).
5. As has already been correctly stated the official reason why the survivors of this unit were not repatriated was that they were defined as "Poles".
6. Whilst the rump of the Division was interned by the Brits in Italy at the camp at Rimini, on 17th June 1945, a Polish delegation arrived which appealed to the western Ukrainians as 'former Polish citizens' to join the second Polish Army Corps, commanded by Polish General Wladyslaw Anders.The first batch of one hundred and seventy six availed themselves of the opportunity to join up (115 before noon on 17 June 1945, and 61 in afternoon). Later the following month a further 50 men joined followed by an additional 105 men. Even though many did so just to escape the depravations of incarceration, undoubtedly some who went were probably of Polish origin - masquerading as Ukrainians.
In my view the truth would therefore seem to be that the 14 Galician Division did include Poles - that is men who were Polish by birth or even registered as Polish Nationals, even though strictly speaking Poles were officially banned from enlistment. But as we all know, German principals were often elastic when it came to matters of military expediency.
Mike Melnyk
2. However, the same document stated it was not necessary for them to have been born in Galicia but only resident there for some time, confirmation of which was to be provided by the village head, a system clearly open to abuse.
3. Galicia is a border area the population of which is mixed Ukrainian / Polish.
4. Only a few months after the recruitment programme had begun, in order to find the necessary manpower, the organisers contrived to maintain the momentum of the recuitment by extending the campaign from Galicia to other areas of the Generalgouvernement including the neighbouring provincial centres of the districts of Cracow and later Lublin. These were predominatly 'Polish' provinces. Later recruitment took place in the provinces of Cholm, and Hrubeshiv, which were also predominatly Polish).
5. As has already been correctly stated the official reason why the survivors of this unit were not repatriated was that they were defined as "Poles".
6. Whilst the rump of the Division was interned by the Brits in Italy at the camp at Rimini, on 17th June 1945, a Polish delegation arrived which appealed to the western Ukrainians as 'former Polish citizens' to join the second Polish Army Corps, commanded by Polish General Wladyslaw Anders.The first batch of one hundred and seventy six availed themselves of the opportunity to join up (115 before noon on 17 June 1945, and 61 in afternoon). Later the following month a further 50 men joined followed by an additional 105 men. Even though many did so just to escape the depravations of incarceration, undoubtedly some who went were probably of Polish origin - masquerading as Ukrainians.
In my view the truth would therefore seem to be that the 14 Galician Division did include Poles - that is men who were Polish by birth or even registered as Polish Nationals, even though strictly speaking Poles were officially banned from enlistment. But as we all know, German principals were often elastic when it came to matters of military expediency.
Mike Melnyk
Last edited by ghost on Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.