Hi everyone,
I'd appreciate any feedback to assist me in ensuring that some dramatised sequences we are going to film for a TV documentary, faithfully depict unforms & insignia worn by officers and other ranks based at regional Gestapo headquarters in March 1944.
From my reading, it appears likely that if in uniform, they would have worn field grey 'SD' uniforms, as depicted in the Axis History Factbook site.
The first group - from the Kiel Gestapo - included an SS Sturmbannfuhrer - so SD uniform with 4 lapel 'pips' as per that rank in the SS, blank 'SD' patch for the other lapel. Shoulder tap the standard insignia for that rank. Standard emblems on peaked cap: eagle and totenkopf. 'SD' and Reichs eagle insignia on left sleeve.
The second group - from the Saarbruecken Gestapo - included a Kriminal Sekretar. My research shows that this equated to an SS Untersturmfuhrer or Sturmscharfuhrer, with standard SD insignia for particular rank chosen. This individual had served in the police, so would he have worn any insignia or badges to indicate this?
Would these SD-uniformed me have worn an 'SD-Hauptamt' cuff title on a sleeve?
Finally, what would non-commissioned junior administration staff have worn, if in uniform?
Thanks for your assistance!
Greg
SS uniforms - Gestapo office, 1944 - for documentary film
Moderator: John W. Howard
Re: SS uniforms - Gestapo office, 1944 - for documentary film
The subject of Gestapo uniforms is a bit complex, for several reasons:
- The Gestapo was a civilian agency, and principally wore civilian clothes. They did wear uniform when necessary, though, such as the case was for all personnel posted to the occupied territories. Inside Germany, however, uniforms were only specified for leaders of Staapostellen (to which the Sipo u. SD offices were attached), so most Gestapo members based in Germany would not have worn them.
- Their uniform was primarily the grey, civilian Allgemeine-SS uniform, but with an increasing amount of Waffen-SS items taken into use as the war progressed. Furthermore, there seemed to have been some initial "confusion" (or deliberate rule breaking) among the NCOs prior to 1942 with regards to collar tresse and shoulder board piping.
As for the SS-Sturmbannführer, I agree to your description, with a couple of remarks:
- The material for the uniform should be gabardine/trikot, as this is a high ranking officer, but also because of the indoor/urban type of work this man would do. I would hesitate to describe the colour as "field grey", the grey version of the model 1932 Allgemeine-SS uniform initially being of a more neutral grey colour. However, as these were private purchase uniforms, the officer could in practice choose any shade within reason. In the later stages of the war, a more greenish tone was apparently common. Shoulder boards were of the police design and should have a light green over black underlay, and worn on both shoulders.
- I assume the officer in question is Fritz Friedrich Schmidt. As leader of the Staatspolizeistelle Kiel, he would be entitled to wear a uniform, and as Kiel was a SD Leitabschnitt, he would be entitled to wear the plain cuff title without any text. His membership of the SS would entitle him to wear the SD sleeve diamond as you describe, and as he was posted to a Stapostelle before 27 Sept 39, he would be entitled to wear it with the silver piping.
As far as I can see, Saarbrucken had no Stapostelle, and would thus have no uniformed Gestapo members.
If you choose to costume these characters with uniforms, the regulations would be as follows:
- Officers: As for the SS-Sturmbannführer, but with SD sleeve diamond only if the characters were members of the SS (personally, as opposed to the organizational attachment of the Gestapo to the SS through the RSHA).
- NCO's: Most pictures of Sipo u. SD NCO's show them wearing the same grey model 1932 as the officers. NCOs were issued uniforms, however, and I would assume a field grey woolen Feldbluse would be suitable if issued at this late date. Privately purchased uniforms were however not uncommon among NCO's. It was common practice among NCO's to wear a white shirt underneath. Rank insignia for NCO's in 1944 would be shoulder boards on both shoulders in the same design as the Schützpolizei, but with black and silver braiding. Underlay is light green. The black and silver piping along the collar is no longer used, nor is the Waffen-SS/Army-style 9mm tresse.
As for the rank of Kriminalsekretär, should you choose the SS-Sturmscharführer parallel rank, keep in mind that this rank was allowed to wear the officer's peaked cap with velvet cap band and silver chord. There would be no special insignia to indicate former police service, but any decorations worn would of course reflect such service. This character, having attained such a high NCO rank, would almost certainly have possessed a model 1932 tunic at some point, which I suspect he would continue wearing as long as possible as a sign of seniority (unless, of course, the rank reflected his previous rank in the police before transfering). The use of a Feldbluse or other field grade woolen tunic could of course be used to visually distinguish him from the officers. This would also be a good way to distinguish the junior staff, as they would be less likely to have a 1932 uniform.
I hope this is of help.
Bjørn
- The Gestapo was a civilian agency, and principally wore civilian clothes. They did wear uniform when necessary, though, such as the case was for all personnel posted to the occupied territories. Inside Germany, however, uniforms were only specified for leaders of Staapostellen (to which the Sipo u. SD offices were attached), so most Gestapo members based in Germany would not have worn them.
- Their uniform was primarily the grey, civilian Allgemeine-SS uniform, but with an increasing amount of Waffen-SS items taken into use as the war progressed. Furthermore, there seemed to have been some initial "confusion" (or deliberate rule breaking) among the NCOs prior to 1942 with regards to collar tresse and shoulder board piping.
As for the SS-Sturmbannführer, I agree to your description, with a couple of remarks:
- The material for the uniform should be gabardine/trikot, as this is a high ranking officer, but also because of the indoor/urban type of work this man would do. I would hesitate to describe the colour as "field grey", the grey version of the model 1932 Allgemeine-SS uniform initially being of a more neutral grey colour. However, as these were private purchase uniforms, the officer could in practice choose any shade within reason. In the later stages of the war, a more greenish tone was apparently common. Shoulder boards were of the police design and should have a light green over black underlay, and worn on both shoulders.
- I assume the officer in question is Fritz Friedrich Schmidt. As leader of the Staatspolizeistelle Kiel, he would be entitled to wear a uniform, and as Kiel was a SD Leitabschnitt, he would be entitled to wear the plain cuff title without any text. His membership of the SS would entitle him to wear the SD sleeve diamond as you describe, and as he was posted to a Stapostelle before 27 Sept 39, he would be entitled to wear it with the silver piping.
As far as I can see, Saarbrucken had no Stapostelle, and would thus have no uniformed Gestapo members.
If you choose to costume these characters with uniforms, the regulations would be as follows:
- Officers: As for the SS-Sturmbannführer, but with SD sleeve diamond only if the characters were members of the SS (personally, as opposed to the organizational attachment of the Gestapo to the SS through the RSHA).
- NCO's: Most pictures of Sipo u. SD NCO's show them wearing the same grey model 1932 as the officers. NCOs were issued uniforms, however, and I would assume a field grey woolen Feldbluse would be suitable if issued at this late date. Privately purchased uniforms were however not uncommon among NCO's. It was common practice among NCO's to wear a white shirt underneath. Rank insignia for NCO's in 1944 would be shoulder boards on both shoulders in the same design as the Schützpolizei, but with black and silver braiding. Underlay is light green. The black and silver piping along the collar is no longer used, nor is the Waffen-SS/Army-style 9mm tresse.
As for the rank of Kriminalsekretär, should you choose the SS-Sturmscharführer parallel rank, keep in mind that this rank was allowed to wear the officer's peaked cap with velvet cap band and silver chord. There would be no special insignia to indicate former police service, but any decorations worn would of course reflect such service. This character, having attained such a high NCO rank, would almost certainly have possessed a model 1932 tunic at some point, which I suspect he would continue wearing as long as possible as a sign of seniority (unless, of course, the rank reflected his previous rank in the police before transfering). The use of a Feldbluse or other field grade woolen tunic could of course be used to visually distinguish him from the officers. This would also be a good way to distinguish the junior staff, as they would be less likely to have a 1932 uniform.
I hope this is of help.
Bjørn
Re: SS uniforms - Gestapo office, 1944 - for documentary film
Dear Bjorn,
This has been extremely helpful to me - many thanks for taking the time to answer my enquiry!
I will relay this information to our production personnel and they will do what they can to ensure that our uniforms are as historically authentic as we can make them.
I have placed another - related - enquiry on this forum and would be delighted if you were to also consider assisting me with it.
Best regards,
Greg
This has been extremely helpful to me - many thanks for taking the time to answer my enquiry!
I will relay this information to our production personnel and they will do what they can to ensure that our uniforms are as historically authentic as we can make them.
I have placed another - related - enquiry on this forum and would be delighted if you were to also consider assisting me with it.
Best regards,
Greg
Re: SS uniforms - Gestapo office, 1944 - for documentary film
Dear Greg,
Glad to have been of assistance.
Unfortunately, I can't help you with your other questions. However, I too must commend you for your determination to be historically authentic.
Bjørn
Glad to have been of assistance.
Unfortunately, I can't help you with your other questions. However, I too must commend you for your determination to be historically authentic.
Bjørn
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Franz Repper
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Re: SS uniforms - Gestapo office, 1944 - for documentary film
This Is way out of my area of intrest but I must say that I too must commend you for your determination to be historically authentic . And I will say thanks to Bjørn for that Information
Denn jedem Kämpfer gibt ein Gott den Kameraden bei