Hi
If this is the wrong site for this query please move it to the correct place.
I know that Luftwaffe men guarded the Allied pilots in the Luftlags but did the same happen for the Stalags (and Marlags). What about Oflags - somehow my mind boggles at Rommel doing guard duty.
Is there any list of guards for ordinary POW camps? I ask because my father mentioned an American guard who had been called up while holidaying with relatives in Germany. My dad's opinion of him was very low so I asked other ex-POWs about him and they considered him more evil than the ordinary guards. (I am sorry to offend any Americans.) The American War Office after denying such a man existed offered to try him for war crimes if I sent them my evidence but I told them to forget it. I just wondered how he or any man got the job of camp guard. Some were decent while others were not - one man opened my father's Red Cross parcel, took out all the cigarettes his brother, a non-smoker had sent to him, and smoked them himself.
Jacky
STALAG GUARDS
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mightythor99
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there were wehrmacht prisoner of war camps too..............
in fact, there were organization todt prisoner of war camps also, on the russian front.
as for a list of guards. nope, not that i know of. they would have a unit designation,...........ie, "450th MP" , which would be the 450th batallion of military police. if you search around on the internet, or ask questions about the military police, someone might be able to help you figure out which unit was at the camp you are talking about.
my father was in the 508th military police, in munich, from '46-48. how did he get to be military police?
well, same way that everyone gets their assignments in the military.
a piece of paper went across the desk with a list of names on it, when he graduated basic training, and it said, first 5 guys stand over here,.........you are going to germany!
next 5 guys, stand over here, .................you are going to japan!
next 3 guys,.....................you are going to alaska!
then they are given paperwork, and are put on the bus, or train, and off they go. he was originally put into the 106th infantry division, but ended up being transfered as soon as he landed in france, to the advanced european theater, given a new patch, and put on a train, to munich, where he traded that patch for another two, and he then was a military policeman, in munich, nuremburg, and around there. he took hermann goring's ashes and tossed them in the river on one of his missions even!
but, my dad never worked in a prisoner of war camp. he did, work with some prisoners of war though, in a canning factory, in columbus, indiana, with prisoners who were serving in camp atterbury prisoner of war camp.
where was your father held prisoner of war, and what time periods?
as for a list of guards. nope, not that i know of. they would have a unit designation,...........ie, "450th MP" , which would be the 450th batallion of military police. if you search around on the internet, or ask questions about the military police, someone might be able to help you figure out which unit was at the camp you are talking about.
my father was in the 508th military police, in munich, from '46-48. how did he get to be military police?
well, same way that everyone gets their assignments in the military.
a piece of paper went across the desk with a list of names on it, when he graduated basic training, and it said, first 5 guys stand over here,.........you are going to germany!
next 5 guys, stand over here, .................you are going to japan!
next 3 guys,.....................you are going to alaska!
then they are given paperwork, and are put on the bus, or train, and off they go. he was originally put into the 106th infantry division, but ended up being transfered as soon as he landed in france, to the advanced european theater, given a new patch, and put on a train, to munich, where he traded that patch for another two, and he then was a military policeman, in munich, nuremburg, and around there. he took hermann goring's ashes and tossed them in the river on one of his missions even!
but, my dad never worked in a prisoner of war camp. he did, work with some prisoners of war though, in a canning factory, in columbus, indiana, with prisoners who were serving in camp atterbury prisoner of war camp.
where was your father held prisoner of war, and what time periods?
I am interested in buying / trading for photo albums, photo groupings, diaries, feldpost groupings,etc, from any country in the world, any army/navy, etc, mostly 20th century!!
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mightythor99
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also,...............are you saying,
that the guard you are saying was mean/cruel to prisoners, was on vacation, in germany, on december 7th/8th, 1941, and was called up right then and there, to serve in the american army? so he went back to america, and joined the army??
that is very hard to imagine, as he would have been whisked off the streets of germany, he wouldnt have been able to get in a plane, train, etc, nor be able to cross over the border into holland, etc. if he had gone to switzerland, he would have been held there, but he wouldnt have been able to leave germany.
but, if he were, and he did make it out of germany, and did make it back to the US, he could have been put in the MP's, just as easily as the infantry, armor, navy, marines, etc.
but highly unlikely that he could have traveled out like that.
that is very hard to imagine, as he would have been whisked off the streets of germany, he wouldnt have been able to get in a plane, train, etc, nor be able to cross over the border into holland, etc. if he had gone to switzerland, he would have been held there, but he wouldnt have been able to leave germany.
but, if he were, and he did make it out of germany, and did make it back to the US, he could have been put in the MP's, just as easily as the infantry, armor, navy, marines, etc.
but highly unlikely that he could have traveled out like that.
I am interested in buying / trading for photo albums, photo groupings, diaries, feldpost groupings,etc, from any country in the world, any army/navy, etc, mostly 20th century!!
Hi mightythor
He was in the 98th Field Regiment Surrey and Sussex Yeomanry (Don't worry even our local archivist department did not know of its existence.) and was captured on 28 May 1940 at Godewaersvelde by 5 tanks.
The American guard at Stalag XXA told all the POWs he was not allowed home because he came from the USA. He was called up into the German Army when he was visiting German relatives so he must have been either a dual national or a German living in America. None of the ex-POWs wanted to pursue the man but they resented being told by some faceless bureaucrat in America that he never existed. I think being bombarded with copies of letters from various English POWs insulting one of their countrymen (one even wanted him hanged) must have rankled.
He was liberated roundabout 10-18 April 1945 by a coloured American tank crew. Their tank was decorated with bottles of 'liberated' wines some of which they gave the POWs. He cannot remember dates or names at this time as he had dysentery and a few other diseases so I don't know where he was liberated.
Jacky
He was in the 98th Field Regiment Surrey and Sussex Yeomanry (Don't worry even our local archivist department did not know of its existence.) and was captured on 28 May 1940 at Godewaersvelde by 5 tanks.
The American guard at Stalag XXA told all the POWs he was not allowed home because he came from the USA. He was called up into the German Army when he was visiting German relatives so he must have been either a dual national or a German living in America. None of the ex-POWs wanted to pursue the man but they resented being told by some faceless bureaucrat in America that he never existed. I think being bombarded with copies of letters from various English POWs insulting one of their countrymen (one even wanted him hanged) must have rankled.
He was liberated roundabout 10-18 April 1945 by a coloured American tank crew. Their tank was decorated with bottles of 'liberated' wines some of which they gave the POWs. He cannot remember dates or names at this time as he had dysentery and a few other diseases so I don't know where he was liberated.
Jacky
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mightythor99
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where was his pow camp?
i read something on a website, about prisoners of war, mostly american though..........cant remember what camp number it was, but they had something simular. i was thinking your grandfather was german, in an american pow camp for some reason!
the account i read,.............i will try to find it again.
the account i read,..........said that this guy (from the US), visiting his family in germany, actually, he moved back to germany in '38 or so, to take over the family business, which was something like a little grocery store or something simular, as i recall, and the war came up, and he was then made a camp guard for a pow camp. probably to gain information since he spoke good english, and could understand things that were being said, etc.
anyway, he was not liked at all by the prisoners, and when they were liberated, they ran him down, and killed him. he was in eastern germany, if i remember correctly.
as far as citizenship goes, my mother is german, and has been "naturalized" (the term we use in the US for becoming citizens, when coming from a different country), and she gave up her german citizenship. she could have kept it, and had "duel citizenship".
i tried to look into becoming a duel citizen, and, being american, i am not allowed to be duel. it's either keep my american citizenship, or become a german citizen...............i cant have both. once i would give up my american citizenship, lots of bad @#% paperwork wise would follow........if i ever wanted to become american again.
here is a link to some pow pages...........it's been a year or two since i read the story, i think this guy was from around barth, which is up on the baltic sea area, but i just cant remember.
http://www.merkki.com/links.htm
should be some good reading for ya anyway, or maybe you have already read most of this stuff.
happy researching!!
ted
the account i read,.............i will try to find it again.
the account i read,..........said that this guy (from the US), visiting his family in germany, actually, he moved back to germany in '38 or so, to take over the family business, which was something like a little grocery store or something simular, as i recall, and the war came up, and he was then made a camp guard for a pow camp. probably to gain information since he spoke good english, and could understand things that were being said, etc.
anyway, he was not liked at all by the prisoners, and when they were liberated, they ran him down, and killed him. he was in eastern germany, if i remember correctly.
as far as citizenship goes, my mother is german, and has been "naturalized" (the term we use in the US for becoming citizens, when coming from a different country), and she gave up her german citizenship. she could have kept it, and had "duel citizenship".
i tried to look into becoming a duel citizen, and, being american, i am not allowed to be duel. it's either keep my american citizenship, or become a german citizen...............i cant have both. once i would give up my american citizenship, lots of bad @#% paperwork wise would follow........if i ever wanted to become american again.
here is a link to some pow pages...........it's been a year or two since i read the story, i think this guy was from around barth, which is up on the baltic sea area, but i just cant remember.
http://www.merkki.com/links.htm
should be some good reading for ya anyway, or maybe you have already read most of this stuff.
happy researching!!
ted
I am interested in buying / trading for photo albums, photo groupings, diaries, feldpost groupings,etc, from any country in the world, any army/navy, etc, mostly 20th century!!
Ah, Jacky, I think I need to say something here before you go off with some information that is less than 100% correct.
The Dulags, Stalags and Oflags for Western PoWs were guarded by Landesschützen companies of the Heer and Luftwaffe. These were the territorial callups of older men, generally in the 35 to 45 range. Remember Feldwebel Schultz from Hogan's Heros? He was a big, fat, dull-witted type around 40 years of age.
There were definitely a number of "Americans" who ended up in the German armed forces during the war, but almost all of them fell into just a couple of categories: (1) Germans who had gone to the USA in the 1920's and 1930's to find work, but had then returned to Germany before 7 December 1941 for one reason or another, generally on vacation to visit family; (2) fanatical German-American Bund members with American citizenship who wanted to volunteer for Wehrmacht service and travelled to Germany well before 7 Dec 41. Of those in the first group, some were naturalized American citizens, but most were not and still had German citizenship. The one thing the two groups had in common was a certain proficiency in American English, especially slang and jargon peculiar to the U.S. There were quite a few in the first group - perhaps several thousand. But there were only a handful in the second group - less than a hundred I would guess. Obviously, only those holding American citizenship were considered traitors. That a few of these "Americans" could have ended up in an Oflag as guards to serve as snitches is entirely plausible. A number in the first groups are known to have served as agents in the Abwehr.
--Lorenz
The Dulags, Stalags and Oflags for Western PoWs were guarded by Landesschützen companies of the Heer and Luftwaffe. These were the territorial callups of older men, generally in the 35 to 45 range. Remember Feldwebel Schultz from Hogan's Heros? He was a big, fat, dull-witted type around 40 years of age.
There were definitely a number of "Americans" who ended up in the German armed forces during the war, but almost all of them fell into just a couple of categories: (1) Germans who had gone to the USA in the 1920's and 1930's to find work, but had then returned to Germany before 7 December 1941 for one reason or another, generally on vacation to visit family; (2) fanatical German-American Bund members with American citizenship who wanted to volunteer for Wehrmacht service and travelled to Germany well before 7 Dec 41. Of those in the first group, some were naturalized American citizens, but most were not and still had German citizenship. The one thing the two groups had in common was a certain proficiency in American English, especially slang and jargon peculiar to the U.S. There were quite a few in the first group - perhaps several thousand. But there were only a handful in the second group - less than a hundred I would guess. Obviously, only those holding American citizenship were considered traitors. That a few of these "Americans" could have ended up in an Oflag as guards to serve as snitches is entirely plausible. A number in the first groups are known to have served as agents in the Abwehr.
--Lorenz
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phylo_roadking
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Yes, L., your group 1/ the "Volksdeutsche". The Abwehr also combed out foeign language-speaking citizens of a LOT of nations - Indian nationalists who were anti-British for sabotage and espionage....and in one notable case to insert into IRELAND to contact the IRA!
I remember seening the numbers for the Volksdeutsche once - taking into account South American german populations etc. it came to well over ten thousand!
Regarding the American-German stalag guard - a LOT of English-speaking guards actually treated the prisoners quite badly, there are a lot of ex-POW memoirs mention this. In some camps, particularly the stalags, a lot of prisoners were content to live out the war and a lot just curled up and died with apathy, but in others where the regime was more of a constant struggle, these english-speaking guards often "excelled" at mistreating prisoners, because they were denied the advantage of anonimity - they could talk to the prisoners and the prisoners could talk to them. They got dealt a LOT of harrasment - its amazing how far POWS could actually go without incurring camp punishment - and so harrased back. Because they could order/harrass/gloat etc. in a familiar language, they came in for particular vitriol.
I don't mean this to excuse ANY mistreatment - I mean the ill-feeling was directed at them personally rather than the anonymous "goon" and they very often directed it back. A process that often spiralled out of control....but the english-speaking guards were backed by the system and the guns LOL and always came out on top
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I remember seening the numbers for the Volksdeutsche once - taking into account South American german populations etc. it came to well over ten thousand!
Regarding the American-German stalag guard - a LOT of English-speaking guards actually treated the prisoners quite badly, there are a lot of ex-POW memoirs mention this. In some camps, particularly the stalags, a lot of prisoners were content to live out the war and a lot just curled up and died with apathy, but in others where the regime was more of a constant struggle, these english-speaking guards often "excelled" at mistreating prisoners, because they were denied the advantage of anonimity - they could talk to the prisoners and the prisoners could talk to them. They got dealt a LOT of harrasment - its amazing how far POWS could actually go without incurring camp punishment - and so harrased back. Because they could order/harrass/gloat etc. in a familiar language, they came in for particular vitriol.
I don't mean this to excuse ANY mistreatment - I mean the ill-feeling was directed at them personally rather than the anonymous "goon" and they very often directed it back. A process that often spiralled out of control....but the english-speaking guards were backed by the system and the guns LOL and always came out on top
("Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
Thank you Lorenz and phylo_roadking
Your statements certainly brought home the fact that possibly more of his guards may not have been German than just the one who bragged about being American. He supervised the men working in a quarry (my father was not among them) and kept on about England being finished. When the men argued and he was losing he doled out punishments.
Jacky
Your statements certainly brought home the fact that possibly more of his guards may not have been German than just the one who bragged about being American. He supervised the men working in a quarry (my father was not among them) and kept on about England being finished. When the men argued and he was losing he doled out punishments.
Jacky
I forgot to mention one place that used a lot of English-speaking Germans who had lived for years and years in England and the USA. Some of them were undoubtedly citizens of those countries. The place in question was Dulag-Luft Oberursel. Oberursel is a suburb a few kilometers north of Frankfurt/M., and during the war the Luftwaffe set up its principal aircrew interrogation center there for RAF and USAAF prisoners. The PoWs were often held there for several weeks and underwent intense interrogation by Luftwaffe intelligence personnel who were so fluent in English that many of the prisoners couldn't tell the difference between them and their fellow countrymen. Oberursel had 40 or 50 of these interrogators there at any one time, so these fellows certainly accounted for a sizeable percentage of the so-called "Americans" and "British" who served in the Wehrmacht, even though most of them had only lived and worked in those countries before the war and were not legally citizens. Many books and articles have been written about Oberursel since the end of the war, and both the U.K. and the U.S. did detailed investigations of its wartime activities.
--Lorenz
--Lorenz
Hi Lorenz
Thank you for your information. Did either country ever publish any figures or information regarding English speaking Germans and/or nationals who helped the Nazi cause. In England I know a few were hanged e.g Lord Haw Haw (William Joyce} but he spoke in peculiar English. Many were also imprsoned but unless they broadcast for Germany their trials/court martials are secret for another 20 or so years.
Jacky
Thank you for your information. Did either country ever publish any figures or information regarding English speaking Germans and/or nationals who helped the Nazi cause. In England I know a few were hanged e.g Lord Haw Haw (William Joyce} but he spoke in peculiar English. Many were also imprsoned but unless they broadcast for Germany their trials/court martials are secret for another 20 or so years.
Jacky
Hi Lorenz
Thank you for your information. Did either country ever publish any figures or information regarding English speaking Germans and/or nationals who helped the Nazi cause. In England I know a few were hanged e.g Lord Haw Haw (William Joyce} but he spoke in peculiar English. Many were also imprisoned but unless they broadcast for Germany their trials/court martials are secret for another 20 or so years.
Jacky
Thank you for your information. Did either country ever publish any figures or information regarding English speaking Germans and/or nationals who helped the Nazi cause. In England I know a few were hanged e.g Lord Haw Haw (William Joyce} but he spoke in peculiar English. Many were also imprisoned but unless they broadcast for Germany their trials/court martials are secret for another 20 or so years.
Jacky