What happened to the Czech Army?

[big_buddha]

Hi Folks

Was just wondering if anyone has any info on what happened to the Czech Army after 1938? I know that the Czech Lz35 and Lz38 tanks, 47mm anti-tank guns, mauser rifles, light and heavy machine guns were taken over by the Wehrmacht, but what happened to the personnel? Was the Czech Army broken up and the soldiers returned to civilian life, and then used as labour in factories by the Reich during the war, or were the soldiers recruited into the Wehrmacht? Did the Czech army completely cease to exist? I;ve never seen any books that discussed this matter.

[phylo_roadking]

Hmm good question; I remember once reading it was the second-best equiped and third largest in Central Europe by 1938...

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Actually, the protectorate government of Bohemia-Moravia had several battalions of troops. They were deployed to Italy in 1944 as labour construction troops, but many deserted to the Italian partisans.

Normal Czechs did not join the Wehrmacht, but some former Czech army men living in the Sudetenland and German speaking areas were drafted into the Wehrmacht along with the normal German male population there. I remember reading that one of them became a Sergeant, won the Knight's Cross on the Eastern front, but unfortunately was killed in action.

Kevin

[Pirx]

Hmm good question; I remember once reading it was the second-best equiped and third largest in Central Europe by 1938...

Where did you found that?
Third largest? so who was first nad second?

[big_buddha]

I'd say The French army was the largest, followed by the German. Not sure if the Czech was third largest, surely the Polish army was larger? The Czech Army, accoring to one source I've found was 1.38 million strong.

They were definitely well-equipped, but I'd say the French and Germans were better equipped, the French has some excellent equipment, but their morale was often pathetic and their doctrine hopelessly outdated. One thing I have long failed to understand is that the French only started to fight with determination after Dunkirk, when the war was lost.

However, I wonder what happened to all the czech soldiery? The Germans wouldn't have left them to live as civilians considering the manpower shortages of the reich in later years. Maybe they mostly ended up in Factories producing war materiel for the Reich. I have heard of a Slovakian uprising, so there mus have been some Slovakian army units still in existence then, I remember reading that some LTz35 tanks that had been stored were used by the Slovakians.

I found this page on Wikipedia that mentions two heavily-armed Slovakian divisions, I find it strange the the Germans would allow the Slovakians to maintain armed forces at a time when the Germans had been scraping the barrel for some time for men and equipment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_National_Uprising

Edvard Beneš, leader of the Czechoslovakian government in exile in London, had initiated the preparations for the possible revolt in 1943 when he made first contacts with the dissident elements of the Slovak army. In December 1943, various groups that would be involved with the uprising—the government in exile, Czechoslovak democrats and communists and Slovak army—formed the underground Slovak National Council, and signed the so-called Christmas Treaty, a joint declaration to recognize Beneš' authority and to recreate Czechoslovakia after the war. The council was responsible for creating the preparatory phase of the Uprising.

In March 1944, Slovak army lieutenant colonel Ján Golian took charge of the preparations. Conspirators stockpiled money, ammunition and other supplies in military bases in central and eastern Slovakia. The rebelling forces called themselves Czechoslovak Forces of the Interior and the First Czechoslovak Army. Approximately 3,200 Slovak soldiers deserted and joined partisan groups or the Soviet Red Army. In April 1944 some Slovak Jews escaped from Auschwitz and eventually spoke about the horrors in German death camps.

In summer 1944 partisans intensified their war against German occupation forces mainly in the mountains of north-central Slovakia. In July, Red Army troops in the Soviet Union and Poland began to advance towards Slovakia. By August 1944 the Red Army was at Krosno, Poland and within 40 kilometers of the North-Eastern Slovak border.

Two heavily armed divisions of the Slovak Army together with the entire eastern Slovak Air Force were deliberately relocated to Prešov in north-eastern Slovakia in summer 1944 to execute one of two preplanned options to begin the Uprising. The two options were: (1) the two divisions would start the Uprising by coordinating their capture of Dukla Pass (joining Poland and Slovakia through the Carpathian Mountains) with the arrival of the Soviet Army (1st Ukrainian Front under Marshall Ivan Konev), or (2) respond to insurrectional army leader Lieutenant Colonel Ján Golian's orders to start resistance by immediately confronting any invading German forces and hold the pass until the Soviet Army could arrive. Colonel Viliam Talský was Chief of staff over the two divisions. He had agreed in advance with the insurrectional army leadership and the uprising planning committee of the Slovak National Council to execute either of these two plans, depending on the circumstances he faced. On August 27, 1944 in Martin, a group of communist partisans killed 30 members of a German military mission en route from Romania, a country that had just changed sides to support the Allies. German troops began to occupy Slovakia the next day to put down the rebellion. At 19:00 hours on August 29 1944 Slovak Defence Minister Gen. Ferdinand Čatloš announced on state radio that Germany had occupied Slovakia. Golian sent the coded message to all units at 20:00 hours to begin the Uprising. Instead of adhering to the agreed plan, Colonel Talský gathered the entire eastern Slovak Air Force on August 30 and abandoned the two divisions flying to a prearranged landing zone in Poland to join Marshall Koniev and the Soviet Army. The two divisions, left in chaos and without leadership, were quickly disarmed on the afternoon of August 30 without a single shot. Consequently, the Uprising commenced prematurely and lost a crucial component of their plan as well as their two most heavily armed divisions capable of resisting any German advance.

Accounts of the exact numbers of combatants vary. At first, the rebel forces consisted of an estimated 18,000 soldiers. The total increased to 47,000 after mobilization on September 9, 1944, and later to 60,000, plus 18,000 partisans from over 30 countries.

In addition to Slovak forces, the combatants included various other groups from escaped French POWs to Soviet partisans and SOE and OSS operatives. The Slovak side had to use mostly bi-planes and improvised armored trains to fight against the better equipped German weapons. In addition to Soviet aid, U.S. B-17 bombers dropped supplies and OSS agents.

[big_buddha]

I found this snippett, which explains why there were Slovak Armed forces:

Slovak Republic was considered a German satellite and Slovak army was developed as a power instrument of the totalitarian regime. Since 1944, antifascist emotions among its soldiers and officers increased.

The decisive armed force in the uprising was the 1st Czechoslovak army in Slovakia, which was the name which the insurgent troops of the Slovak Army fought in the SNU. Until October 7, 1944 the commander of the army was General J. Golian and after that it became General R. Viest. The first stage of the defense of the compact insurgent territory lasted from the begining of the uprising until September 10, 1944. In this stage - in spite of extensive losses – the insurgents achieved the stabilization of the front. The second stage of the defense of the insurgent territory lasted from September 10, until October 18, 1944. In this course, the insurgent army was reinforced by the Czechoslovak fighter regiment and paratroop brigade, which both came from USSR. Despite providing this support, the insurgents lost some important territories. The third stage lasted from October 18, 1944 to the end of October and was represented by the general German offensive undertook from Hungary after the unsuccessful attempt of Hungary to leave the war.

[phylo_roadking]

All, I said CENTRAL European lol Better equiped than the Poles, but smaller in total numbers than them, just.

BB, was thinking the same...if you dissect that document carefully, there were :-

1. serving Slovak officers,

2. serving Slovak rank and file,

3. open and fucntioning barracks - the ones they had access to to stockpile supplies

4. their own equipment in service,

5. Finally - they still had freedom of movement if they were to be be able to move into position to carry out the operations mentioned.

interesting.....

[Pirx]

I'd say The French army was the largest, followed by the German. Not sure if the Czech was third largest, surely the Polish army was larger? The Czech Army, accoring to one source I've found was 1.38 million strong.

1,38 was probably to many for country with 12 mln people. And well equiped could be about 30% from that large number. Germany during war drafted many people, but they had slave workers, and industries of half Europe.
I think that not only France and Germany had larger army but also USSR, Italy and Spain (Franco). Polish army in 1938 had less than 290 000 people.
Following "Ceskoslovenskie Vojenstvi" Czechoslovakian army 1938 schould had after mobilisation 12 divisions and 17 brigades.

[big_buddha]

I agree, Spain, Italy and USSR were larger armies, but I only included western/central european armies.

Interesting that they allowed the Slovaks to maintain an army, and never demanded it fight on the Ostfront, maybe they didn't believe Slovaks would fight for the Reich. Still, considering all other armies of the pre-reich countries were disbanded, its a curious anomaly. I suppose the Czech parts of the army were disbanded and ended up as labour for the Reich, I wonder how many Czechs (real Czechs, not ethnic Germans) fought in the Wehrmacht? I know a couple of brigades fought with the British Army, and about 12000 Czechs eventally served in Red Army.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

a bit off topic, but you claim

Interesting that they allowed the Slovaks to maintain an army, and never demanded it fight on the Ostfront, maybe they didn't believe Slovaks would fight for the Reich.Still, considering all other armies of the pre-reich countries were disbanded, its a curious anomaly.

actually, the Slovak army fought with the Germans on some occasions. The 1st Slovakian Division attacked Poland along with the Wehrmacht in 1939, and there was a small article on the Slovakians on the Eastern front in the German propaganda magazine 'Signal'. They coud'n't lie about a thing like that. And the Romanian and Bulgarian army was not disbanded, they defected to the side of the Soviets, while the Hungarian army was withdrawn in 1943 from the Eastern front, Skorzeny removed Horthy in 1944 just in time, which ensured the loyalty of the Hungarian army which went back to the Eastern front, at that time already reaching Jungary.

I wonder how many Czechs (real Czechs, not ethnic Germans) fought in the Wehrmacht?

the case I told you about was a real Czech who was drafted since he lived in a German majority area. He was not an ethnic German.

Kevin

[sid guttridge]

Hi Guys,

Czechoslovakia had about six million Czechs, three million Germans, three million Slovaks and about a million Hungarians and Ruthenes. (These are round figures).

The Germans, Slovaks, Hungarians and Ruthenes were all stripped away in 1938-39. The Slovaks inherited almost all the weaponry from the eastern end of the country, much more, indeed, than the 3-division army the Germans allowed them to maintain could hold. Therefore much was stored and this was the core of what was used in the 1944 uprising.

The Germans had been integrated with Czech-majority formations, especially in technical arms. The loss of German manpower at Munich in 1938 therefore hit every division in the Czech end of the country. Furthermore, many of them lost their depots with the Sudentland.

Thus, by mid-March 1939 the Czechs had available under half of the manpower available during the Munich Crisis. Furthermore, while the Czechoslovak Army was fully mobilised during the Munich Crisis (some 38-40 divisions) in September 1938, what was left of it was completely unmobilised in mid-March 1939. On top of this, many trained conscripts had finished their service and the new intake of the beginning of March was totally untrained. The strategic situation was so hopeless after Munich that no resistance was offered.

Czech weaponry was used to equip at least ten German infantry divisions in 1939-40 and Czech gun tanks (35t and 38t) represented nearly half of all the gun-tanks the Germans used against Poland in September 1939.

Ex-Czech weaponry was widely used to form new Waffen-SS formations in 1940-42 (7th SS Division, for example, seems to have had mostly Czech equipment). More importantly, Czech weaponry trickled down to some of Germany's important Allies, particularly the Romanians, who ha bought mostly Czech weaponry before the war.

Must go,

Cheers,

Sid.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Skorzeny removed Horthy

Jan-Hendrik

[Helmut Von Moltke]

smelling another myth Jan?

After all, didn't he do it in Operation Margarethe in October 1944? He managed to kidpnap Horthy's son and get him to quietly resign through that, and put 40 Panthers surrounding the Citadel in Budapest.

source: "The Commandos" Time Life book WWII series

K

[Jan-Hendrik]

Should I really say anything more ....

Skozeny had nothing to do with operatin Margarethe in spring 1944...

He and a few of his men were in Budapest due to Operation Panzerfaust in Oktober 1944 as Horthy tried to withdraw Hungary from the war ...

And no , not one Pz V in Budapest , just two Platoons of sPzAbt.503 with Tiger II . By the way , as Skorzeny entered theatralically the Castle of Budapest sitting on the Back of a Tiger II the "real" things already had happened , will say , the Hungarian forces had been already convinced not to fight ....


Jan-Hendrik

[Helmut Von Moltke]

Thanks for the correction Jan.

Too many "myths" coming out of Skorzeny... even in books

K