I'd like opinions of the impact of the Allied fighter bombers in the battle for France.
Thank you
The real impact of the fighter bomber post D-day
Moderator: John W. Howard
Hi Rich,
The value that the Jabo had was huge, but only when allied with the fact we had nearly complete air superiority. I'd be interested to see the amount of rolling stock, trucks, etc that the Germans lost to jabo's in the west.
I remember reading that German troops recently transfered from the Western Front (44/45) showed a marked dislike for moving through open spaces in daylight, as had they done this in France, they would have been shot to pieces pretty quick.
No opposition in the air and great ground/air co-operation made them the success they were, IMO, they would have had a much harder job if the LW had been at a good fighting strength. A P-47 doesnt like being at 200 feet on a strafing run when there are too many FW-190's about!
Cheers,
The value that the Jabo had was huge, but only when allied with the fact we had nearly complete air superiority. I'd be interested to see the amount of rolling stock, trucks, etc that the Germans lost to jabo's in the west.
I remember reading that German troops recently transfered from the Western Front (44/45) showed a marked dislike for moving through open spaces in daylight, as had they done this in France, they would have been shot to pieces pretty quick.
No opposition in the air and great ground/air co-operation made them the success they were, IMO, they would have had a much harder job if the LW had been at a good fighting strength. A P-47 doesnt like being at 200 feet on a strafing run when there are too many FW-190's about!
Cheers,
Jock
Rich
You may find this article interesting - a different perspective on Allied Air power.
http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normand ... ticle.html
cheers
Reb
You may find this article interesting - a different perspective on Allied Air power.
http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normand ... ticle.html
cheers
Reb
I have the exact German losses to allied air power around here somewheres. "Germans can be very exact". Most people would probably be surprised by the low number of actual losses to Jabos,especially in the days following 6 June. However, that doesn't tell the entire story.
There are several different dynamics that emerge.
#1, Is that the German army was an extremely well disciplined force. The fact that they were able to fight so well, for so long, against an enemy air corp that dominated the skies, is worthy of a warriors respect. They were also adaptable, and were able to function at night.
#2, Is that there was a psychological component to being at risk of Jabo attack that isn't listed in damage and destroyed records. As anyone would be the Germans were terrified of the Jabos, their cannon, guns, bombs, and rockets. Most terrifying of them all were the Typhoons and P-47s. Again you have to admire the German army, especially the Panzer corps, for their ability to keep discipline and morale under such adverse conditions. Still, and I got this from a veteran of Panzer Lehr, the fear of the Jabos began to crack them over time. They had no fear of the allied ground forces but they did of the allied air forces. And add to that the almost complete surrender of the air space from the Luftwaffe and it frayed their morale over time.
#3, I used to fish with a veteran who flew P-47s over Europe. To hear it from him the Jabos had complete freedom to rove and strafe where ever they wanted. A typical day for him would be an attack on a German air field in the AM and on the return to England it was a shooting gallery. Of particular interest were the trains, and more so for a rail dependant army like the Germans had. Even he said he admired how the Germans maintained discipline when the Yank Jabos attacked. He also said, "and the Germans always fired back at us".
#4, The Germans completely lost the ability to maneuver during the day. Even in the poor weather of first few days of the invasion the German columns heading to Normandy had to constantly dismount and find covers when the Jabos attacked, again this isnt listed in the damage reports but it severely hampered the German army.
#5, Eventually any army would crack under such pressure. The heavy bombing at the opening of "Cobra" was the final straw on the road to Falaise. However it must be mentioned that the German forces showed a tremendous resiliency , professionalism, and toughness. Even after Falaise they were still a force to be reckoned with.
There are several different dynamics that emerge.
#1, Is that the German army was an extremely well disciplined force. The fact that they were able to fight so well, for so long, against an enemy air corp that dominated the skies, is worthy of a warriors respect. They were also adaptable, and were able to function at night.
#2, Is that there was a psychological component to being at risk of Jabo attack that isn't listed in damage and destroyed records. As anyone would be the Germans were terrified of the Jabos, their cannon, guns, bombs, and rockets. Most terrifying of them all were the Typhoons and P-47s. Again you have to admire the German army, especially the Panzer corps, for their ability to keep discipline and morale under such adverse conditions. Still, and I got this from a veteran of Panzer Lehr, the fear of the Jabos began to crack them over time. They had no fear of the allied ground forces but they did of the allied air forces. And add to that the almost complete surrender of the air space from the Luftwaffe and it frayed their morale over time.
#3, I used to fish with a veteran who flew P-47s over Europe. To hear it from him the Jabos had complete freedom to rove and strafe where ever they wanted. A typical day for him would be an attack on a German air field in the AM and on the return to England it was a shooting gallery. Of particular interest were the trains, and more so for a rail dependant army like the Germans had. Even he said he admired how the Germans maintained discipline when the Yank Jabos attacked. He also said, "and the Germans always fired back at us".
#4, The Germans completely lost the ability to maneuver during the day. Even in the poor weather of first few days of the invasion the German columns heading to Normandy had to constantly dismount and find covers when the Jabos attacked, again this isnt listed in the damage reports but it severely hampered the German army.
#5, Eventually any army would crack under such pressure. The heavy bombing at the opening of "Cobra" was the final straw on the road to Falaise. However it must be mentioned that the German forces showed a tremendous resiliency , professionalism, and toughness. Even after Falaise they were still a force to be reckoned with.
Hi,
Reb, thats an interesting article - it does show that more soft skinned vehicles were destroyed by A/C than anything else - especially when you factor in the 'Unknown Causes'. I would imagine these are lone trucks meeting an unknown fate. If you use the ratio's for the other soft skinned targets, we can assume mabye 10-13 of these 'Unknown Causes' were actually down to A/C. If we were discussing Allied air power v German armour, my view point would be completly different. I was making my judgement based mainly on the question of transportation and supplies (Trucks and trains rather than tanks).
Rich, you make some good points there. Especially the comment on the psychological effects it would have.
Cheers,
Reb, thats an interesting article - it does show that more soft skinned vehicles were destroyed by A/C than anything else - especially when you factor in the 'Unknown Causes'. I would imagine these are lone trucks meeting an unknown fate. If you use the ratio's for the other soft skinned targets, we can assume mabye 10-13 of these 'Unknown Causes' were actually down to A/C. If we were discussing Allied air power v German armour, my view point would be completly different. I was making my judgement based mainly on the question of transportation and supplies (Trucks and trains rather than tanks).
Rich, you make some good points there. Especially the comment on the psychological effects it would have.
Cheers,
Jock
Jock
There is a good piece in "Armour Battles of the W-SS" where Fritz Langanke talks of being strafed by an American Jabo while in a panther tank. Pretty daggone nerve racking - the .50 guns shot out all the periscopes and wrecked everything but did not penetrate. But damn - that must ruin your day - after a couple times I can imagine you're feeling pretty shaken!
cheers
Reb
There is a good piece in "Armour Battles of the W-SS" where Fritz Langanke talks of being strafed by an American Jabo while in a panther tank. Pretty daggone nerve racking - the .50 guns shot out all the periscopes and wrecked everything but did not penetrate. But damn - that must ruin your day - after a couple times I can imagine you're feeling pretty shaken!
cheers
Reb
Actually hitting and destroying a tank was only one part of the equation. By then the Allied air forces were hitting the gasoline facilities that made the fuel to drive the tank. By 1944 the gas shortages became a chronic problem for the Germans. Add to that the effects of the air war on the German railroads, which had great effect both on tank production, tank transport, and transport of materials needed to maintain the Panzer units.
Frankly its amazing the Germans held out as long as they did under the onslaught. And of course the bombing compaigns effect on aviation fuel was even more dramatic.
But were talking Jabos here. I just wanted to point out there were ways to stop the Panzers that didnt involve a lucky hit by a 5" rocket.
Frankly its amazing the Germans held out as long as they did under the onslaught. And of course the bombing compaigns effect on aviation fuel was even more dramatic.
But were talking Jabos here. I just wanted to point out there were ways to stop the Panzers that didnt involve a lucky hit by a 5" rocket.
Its very easy to overplay the fact that few tanks were destroyed by A/C in Normandy. The points about daytime mobility and morale have already been made (the maquis had a powerful impact on morale also). Furthermore, the HTs and soft-skinned vehicles accompanying the tanks were very vulnerable to the Jabos guns as well as their rockets.
All airpower plays its most significant part behind the enemy front. The German supply network west of the Seine collapsed completely prior to D-Day. Compare the performance of a powerful army in good order but poorly supplied (Normandy) with that of a shattered, but *relatively* well supplied, force of declining professionalism (Arnhem/Alsace).
Regards,
dduff
All airpower plays its most significant part behind the enemy front. The German supply network west of the Seine collapsed completely prior to D-Day. Compare the performance of a powerful army in good order but poorly supplied (Normandy) with that of a shattered, but *relatively* well supplied, force of declining professionalism (Arnhem/Alsace).
Regards,
dduff
Of special mention should be the dual abilities of many of the Allied Jabos. Something the Luftwaffe was woefully lacking. The P-47s, P-38s, P-51s, Hurricanes, Spitfires, Typhoon "later Tempest", were marvels of dual application fighter bombers.
Correct me If I'm wrong but the only Luftwaffe comparison was the FW-190, one version of which had a 30mm canon and was fearsome as a Jabo as well as retaining excellent air to air abilities. The bf-110 was a disappointment as an LR air superiority fighter but certainly filled a role as night fighter and was a good ground attack weapon. The Ju-87 was a tomato in the air no matter how well it supported ground troops. The Ju-88 was solid on every front.
Clearly the excellent designs, long range/loiter, dual capabilities, and armament/performance of the Allied jabos were a constant concern for the German armed forces.
Correct me If I'm wrong but the only Luftwaffe comparison was the FW-190, one version of which had a 30mm canon and was fearsome as a Jabo as well as retaining excellent air to air abilities. The bf-110 was a disappointment as an LR air superiority fighter but certainly filled a role as night fighter and was a good ground attack weapon. The Ju-87 was a tomato in the air no matter how well it supported ground troops. The Ju-88 was solid on every front.
Clearly the excellent designs, long range/loiter, dual capabilities, and armament/performance of the Allied jabos were a constant concern for the German armed forces.
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phylo_roadking
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Hmm, the Typhoon WAS an excellent fighter bomber......very stable and heavy, an excellent rocket platform.....BUT ended up as a fighterbomber exactly because it was a total lemon as an all-altitude air superiority fighter. Its Napier engine powered out at high altitudes just like the Allisons in early P51s. But there'd been a high investment in it as a Spitfire replacement and rather than write it off the later and very successfulrole was found for it.
NB most German jabos of the 2nd half of the war were either short production run ground attack aircraft, hence poor fighters, or converted bombers. It always suprised me reading the JU-88 described as a FIGHTER lol Yes, the FW190 was successful, but at the price of carrying relatively little ordnance compared to Allied equivalents.
Phylo
NB most German jabos of the 2nd half of the war were either short production run ground attack aircraft, hence poor fighters, or converted bombers. It always suprised me reading the JU-88 described as a FIGHTER lol Yes, the FW190 was successful, but at the price of carrying relatively little ordnance compared to Allied equivalents.
Phylo