Belgium Waffen SS

[Laurent Daniel]

Sorry, I already post what follows in the General Waffen SS forum, wrong location, it should be here!

This message is mainly for Eddy de Bruines, but anyone who knows is most welcome to reply, thanks in advance:

I have a little polemic going on in a French Newsgroup about the compared SS numbers in France and Belgium.

At its peak, the 33 Waffen SS Division Charlemagne incorporated about 7,000 men. That was in 1945 and one can assume that about 1,000 former French Waffen SS were not there: MIA, POW, dead, wounded, retired, ran away, etc...

It makes a total of about 8,000 Waffen SS for a French population of about 45 millions, i.e a rough average of one SS for 5,700 French nationals.

My questions:
How many Belgians have been member of the Waffen SS?
What was the population of Belgium at that time?

Thanks in advance

[Opa]

In France there were other units one could join. So if you count all French units on the Eastern front, plus the dead (survivors, but not all, later in Charlemagne), you get a higher number.

[narwa44]

Hello,

As I don't have my data within reach, I'll only answer the question pertaining to the Walloons.
The number of Walloons having enrolled in the Légion Wallonie ( August 1941 - may1943 i.e. Heer period ) and in the Waffen-SS ( June 1943 - April 1945 ) is close to 8.000 men. ( In fact, the very last figures are something like 7.800 to 7.900 ).
The Flemish wer more numerous by a few thousands.
Yours,
Eddy De Bruyne

[Laurent Daniel]

Thanks Eddy,

So 8,000 Wallons SS plus more than 8,000 Flemish SS, it means more than 16,000 thousands Belgium SS.

In France, with the 7,000 in the Charlemagne plus the veterans of the SS Brigade Frankreich who did'nt join the Division, we are at less than 10,000.

I know that there were many other possibility in France to join a German military unit or even some French collaborationist armed units like the Milice, but I think that joining the SS was something different from a political point of view. However, for the record, one can evaluate to about 56,000 the number of French who served in armed units of the 3rd Reich or armed collaborationist units.

Now, I am left trying to understand why the rate was so high in Belgium, compared to France.
Maybe no other choice than the Legion then the SS, unlike in France.

[narwa44]

Hello,
The Belgians had as many possibilities to join other (para ) military organizations than the Waffen-SS as the French.
Let me mention : the NSKK, The Walloon Guard (Garde Wallonne), the Eisenbahnwache, the Formations de Combat, the D.S.I., the Labour Service, the Sipo-Sd, etc.... ( not to mention the numerous Flemish collaborationist movements ).
Yours,
Eddy De Bruyne

[Troy Tempest]

Total numbers of volunteers from Belgium for the W-SS numbered around 40,000. The two main SS units using volunteers were the 27th SS-Freiwilligen Grenadier Division 'Langemarck' (Flemish #1), and the better known 28th SS-Freiwilligen Grenadier Division 'Wallonien'. Belgium volunteers fought hard for Germany, most notably in the struggle to hold back the Red Army in the fierce battles on the Narva River, where both Flemish and Walloon elements were under the command of III Germanisches Korps. The nominal divisional strengths of these two units at the beginning of 1945 was Langemarck - 7,000 and Wallonien - 4,000. The Langemarck division won one Knights Cross, and the Wallonien three. These two units were renamed divisions in September 1944, although they were divisions in name only and never exceeded regimental strength, and both fought in Russia, Poland and Germany.

The single Knights Cross holder from the Langemarck division was SS-Sturmann Remy Schrynen, who was decorated on 21.9.44, for extreme gallantry in the face of the enemy. As an anti-tank gunner he continued to man his gun alone after the other members had been killed, and he had been ordered to withdraw. He refused to leave his post, and single-handedly knocked out three 'Stalin' tanks and four t-34's before being severely wounded. The three men who won the Knights Cross in the Wallonien division were the famous divsional commander and favourite of the Führer, SS-Haupsturmführer Leon Degrelle, who went on to win the oakleaves and prestigeous Close Combat Clasp in Gold, and SS-Untersturmführers Leon Gillis and Jaques Leroy. Leroy lost his right arm and right eye in the battle at Cherkassy, but refused to be invalided out of the unit. In April '45 he took charge of 1 Kompanie of SS Freiwilligen Panzergrenadier Regiment 69. During three days and nights of hand-to-hand combat the 40 man unit lost 32 of its strength, but Leroy manifested such fine qualities of courage and leadership that, on 20 April, he was recommended for an immediate award of the Knights Cross.

Troy
21.42 - fri, sydney

[Benoit Douville]

So it is 16 000 or 40 000 Volunteers from Belgium because there is a huge difference here...

Those stories that you wrote are pretty amazing and fascinating, those Volunteers had a lot of courage indeed.

What is your source?

[Troy Tempest]

Hi Benoit, the source is SS:Hitler's Foreign Divisions by Chris Bishop, (05), ISBN 1-86227-289-1. He cites more than 350,000 foreign volunteers for the Waffen-SS, and says more than 125,000 of these were Western Europeans. The breakdown is as follows:

Albania c.7,000
Belgium c.40,000
Bulgaria c.600
Denmark c.10,000
Estonia c.25,000
Finland c.3,000
France c.20,000
Gt Britain c.50
Hungary c.20,000
Italy c.15,000
Latvia c.80,000
Luxembourg c.2,000
Netherlands c.50,000
Norway c.6,000
Romania c.50,000
Soviet Union c.60,000+
Spain c.1,000
Sweden c.300?
Switzerland c.3,000
Yugoslavia c.30,000

The same figure of 40,000 is also stated in Hitlers Praetorians: The History of the Waffen-SS 1925-1945 by Tim Ripley, (04) ISBN 1-86227-248-4. Both these books are great! Hope this helps you mate.

Troy
19.46 - thu, sydney

[Benoit Douville]

I have heard that ''Hitler's Foreign Divisions'' by Chris Bishop is not a reliable source... I trust more Eddy De Bruyne.

Your input on this is really appreciated anyway.

Regards

[Stormman]

Hallo “Generalderpanzertruppen”
First of all I don’t belive there where 40 000 Belgians member of the Waffen-SS, the numbers that Eddy De Bruyne gives you are more realistic.
Seconded: the Division-Langemarck didn’t won one knights cross. SS-Sturmmann Remi Schrijnen received the Ritterkreuz in Narwa, he was a member of the Stormbrigade Langemarck and shot down those Russian tanks in the sector of the Panzergrenadier-Brigade Nederland. And SS-Obersturmbannführer Konrad Schellong received the Ritterkreuz on February 1945 as Kommandeur der Kampfgruppe Schellong, that was build from parts of the Division-Langemarck.

[Troy Tempest]

Hi Stormman! You are correct! I checked in my copy of Verleihung Genehmigt!: Eine bild und dokumentargeschichte der Ritterkreuzträger der Waffen-SS und Polizei 1940-1945 by Jost W Schneider, and it says Remi Schrynen won the EK II on 28.5.44, the EK I on 3.8.44 and the RK on 21.9.44, as SS-Strurmmann, Geschützführer of 3./SS-Freiwillige Sturmbrigade Langmarck, III. (germ.) SS-Pz. Korps, Heeresgruppe Nord, Ostfront. He also wont the verwundetenabzeichen (wound badge) in gold.

Troy

[TimoWr]

The given number of Dutchmen is also wrong. There were between 23,000 and 25,000 Dutchmen in the Waffen-SS.

[pzrmeyer2]

So were there more French and Dutchmen in the Waffen SS or the Resistance? (Of course, after the war they were all in the Resistance).

[TPMM]

Well, in fact Danemark was almost independent before 1943 - they even had own army and fleet(quite strong as for Baltic sea). What's more, it's government was fully supporting the forming of Danemark SS units. (on the other hand, had they any other choose with german garrisons in the country?)

[Troy Tempest]

So were there more French and Dutchmen in the Waffen SS or the Resistance? (Of course, after the war they were all in the Resistance).