Hello,
I had an encounter recently with an Englishman online. He seemed offended when I asked if he was British and replied that he was English.
Do the British subjects of the Crown still refer to themselves as English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish instead of British?
Cordially,
Freiritter
British Sectionalism?
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Freiritter
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British Sectionalism?
Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.
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sid guttridge
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Hi Freiritter,
We are all British subjects by nationality. English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish or Cornish doesn't appear on our passports.
However, this doesn't stop us having national identities within the UK. Some people are more strident about it than others. A self conscious English national identity separate from Britishness has only really re-emerged in the last decade or two, since the Scots and Welsh got their own parliaments.
I consider myself British with a particularly strong Cornish component. The truth is that we white British are all so mixed in ancestry that in reality the only difference is the proportions of English, Scottish, Irish or Welsh in us.
Cheers,
Sid.
We are all British subjects by nationality. English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish or Cornish doesn't appear on our passports.
However, this doesn't stop us having national identities within the UK. Some people are more strident about it than others. A self conscious English national identity separate from Britishness has only really re-emerged in the last decade or two, since the Scots and Welsh got their own parliaments.
I consider myself British with a particularly strong Cornish component. The truth is that we white British are all so mixed in ancestry that in reality the only difference is the proportions of English, Scottish, Irish or Welsh in us.
Cheers,
Sid.
Freiritter...
This Englishness is a recent evolution........ probably in response to sport.....
If you are in a pub watching England trying to play (cricket, football, rugby, tiddly winks(all sports we bloodly well invented) against Australia, France, Argentina, Iraq, Hezbollah..... whoever.......
those people cheering the opposition are Celts....... which is quite entertaining and leads to mild joshing............ the best medicine for English supports fans is to cheer (the Celts still seem to have a wee problem with this... why are the English cheering on Jonny Foreign at the their nearest and dearest's expense) on South Africa (v Scotland) and Argentina (v Ireland) this afternoon.........
Don't hold out any hope of Scotland winning, but should be a good match, not like walkovers of yesteryear..... will feel sightly guilty as it's like cheering on a heavy-weight versus a straw-weight or US v insurgents in Fallujah.
But Ireland v Argentina .... don't think it'll be shown in England..... should be a fantastic contest as Ireland have recently beaten SA and Argentina have beaten France..... Ireland to edge it by 5 or 10 points.... So I would be cheering like mad for our former enemies the Argies.....
Basically it boils down (in a light hearted way)... your enemies are my enemies...... they (the Celts) have a very large, noisy, some times inconsiderate neighbour.........
who like to report that Brit (eg Liz McColgan (a Scot middle distance runner) won a bronze at the such & such games
but then report the Scot (Ms @#%) bottled it and failed to win a medal at the egg and spoon race.....
This Englishness is a recent evolution........ probably in response to sport.....
If you are in a pub watching England trying to play (cricket, football, rugby, tiddly winks(all sports we bloodly well invented) against Australia, France, Argentina, Iraq, Hezbollah..... whoever.......
those people cheering the opposition are Celts....... which is quite entertaining and leads to mild joshing............ the best medicine for English supports fans is to cheer (the Celts still seem to have a wee problem with this... why are the English cheering on Jonny Foreign at the their nearest and dearest's expense) on South Africa (v Scotland) and Argentina (v Ireland) this afternoon.........
Don't hold out any hope of Scotland winning, but should be a good match, not like walkovers of yesteryear..... will feel sightly guilty as it's like cheering on a heavy-weight versus a straw-weight or US v insurgents in Fallujah.
But Ireland v Argentina .... don't think it'll be shown in England..... should be a fantastic contest as Ireland have recently beaten SA and Argentina have beaten France..... Ireland to edge it by 5 or 10 points.... So I would be cheering like mad for our former enemies the Argies.....
Basically it boils down (in a light hearted way)... your enemies are my enemies...... they (the Celts) have a very large, noisy, some times inconsiderate neighbour.........
who like to report that Brit (eg Liz McColgan (a Scot middle distance runner) won a bronze at the such & such games
but then report the Scot (Ms @#%) bottled it and failed to win a medal at the egg and spoon race.....
Banzai!
England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales are not simply geographical entities, but have different ethnic populations -with, in some cases, their own languages (eg: around a quarter of the Welsh population speaks Welsh as a first language). The Cornish people inhabit the county of Cornwall in the far western part of southern England and are ethnically different from the rest of the English, but are (geographically) part of England. The Welsh and the Cornish are related to the Bretons who inhabit Brittany in France and there are similarities in their languages.
In addition to the national, British, Parliament, the current Labour government has established a Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly (and Northern Ireland has its own assembly when it isn't dissolved!) -the only population whic, surprisingly, doesn't have its own, separate, parliament or assembly is the English which is by far the biggest!)! So, justifiably, the English feel rather under-represented, and, so, this is probably the reason why your English correspondent may have been somewhat peeved and prefers being called 'English' rather than 'British'!
I should add that the Scots, Welsh, and Irish get really peeved when 'Britain' is incorrectly (but often!) referred to as 'England'!!!
In addition to the national, British, Parliament, the current Labour government has established a Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly (and Northern Ireland has its own assembly when it isn't dissolved!) -the only population whic, surprisingly, doesn't have its own, separate, parliament or assembly is the English which is by far the biggest!)! So, justifiably, the English feel rather under-represented, and, so, this is probably the reason why your English correspondent may have been somewhat peeved and prefers being called 'English' rather than 'British'!
I should add that the Scots, Welsh, and Irish get really peeved when 'Britain' is incorrectly (but often!) referred to as 'England'!!!
England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales are not simply geographical entities, but have different ethnic populations -with, in some cases, their own languages (eg: around a quarter of the Welsh population speaks Welsh as a first language). The Cornish people inhabit the county of Cornwall in the far western part of southern England and are ethnically different from the rest of the English, but are (geographically) part of England. The Welsh and the Cornish are related to the Bretons who inhabit Brittany in France and there are similarities in their languages.
In addition to the national, British, Parliament, the current Labour government has established a Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly (and Northern Ireland has its own assembly when it isn't dissolved!) -the only population whic, surprisingly, doesn't have its own, separate, parliament or assembly is the English which is by far the biggest!)! So, justifiably, the English feel rather under-represented, and, so, this is probably the reason why your English correspondent may have been somewhat peeved and prefers being called 'English' rather than 'British'!
I should add that the Scots, Welsh, and Irish get really peeved when 'Britain' is incorrectly (but often!) referred to as 'England'!!!
In addition to the national, British, Parliament, the current Labour government has established a Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly (and Northern Ireland has its own assembly when it isn't dissolved!) -the only population whic, surprisingly, doesn't have its own, separate, parliament or assembly is the English which is by far the biggest!)! So, justifiably, the English feel rather under-represented, and, so, this is probably the reason why your English correspondent may have been somewhat peeved and prefers being called 'English' rather than 'British'!
I should add that the Scots, Welsh, and Irish get really peeved when 'Britain' is incorrectly (but often!) referred to as 'England'!!!
The situation (in the south) of Germany is not really different. You feel as a Bavarian or e.g. I feel as a Badener (without Württemberg!) and it depends on the person how much you feel German or if the region (former souvereign states!) is more important for someone.sid guttridge wrote: We are all British subjects by nationality. English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish or Cornish doesn't appear on our passports.
However, this doesn't stop us having national identities within the UK. Some people are more strident about it than others.
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Die Dummheit des Menschen und das Universum sind unendlich; wobei ich mir beim Universum nicht ganz sicher bin! (Albert Einstein)
http://www.3ss.totenkopf.de.vu
Die Dummheit des Menschen und das Universum sind unendlich; wobei ich mir beim Universum nicht ganz sicher bin! (Albert Einstein)
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sid guttridge
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Hi Brian,
Off topic -
Baden always had my favourite army during the Napoleonic Wars. I think it was the smallest army of the period that had the full range of arms - guards, line infantry, jaegers, heavy cavalry, dragoons, light cavalry, foot and field artillery. In addition it was of high quality. I seem to remember that the Baden Hussars had a major role in saving the remnants of Napoleon's Grande Armee at the River Beresina.
Cheers,
Sid.
Off topic -
Baden always had my favourite army during the Napoleonic Wars. I think it was the smallest army of the period that had the full range of arms - guards, line infantry, jaegers, heavy cavalry, dragoons, light cavalry, foot and field artillery. In addition it was of high quality. I seem to remember that the Baden Hussars had a major role in saving the remnants of Napoleon's Grande Armee at the River Beresina.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Arne
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a little off topic from me also
(It follows a small outbreak of national cheauvinism from another formerly indepentent german state...)
As I mentioned before. I'm Hannoveran and OUR army was the best during the napoleonic wars.
Sid: May I qoute you from another discussion of the last days:
(It follows a small outbreak of national cheauvinism from another formerly indepentent german state...)
As I mentioned before. I'm Hannoveran and OUR army was the best during the napoleonic wars.
Sid: May I qoute you from another discussion of the last days:
The Hannoveran troops who the french met in the peninsular campaign were a self selecting elite. They had shown the initiative to escape from occupied Europe and were highly motivated.The Polish troops who the Germans met in the second half of the war were a self selecting elite. They had shown the initiative to escape from occupied Europe and were highly motivated.
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sid guttridge
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Hi all,
http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... c&start=34
Freiritter, this discussion between me and Sid might help you understand a little better. Greenhorn sums it up very well though...I like to watch International Football (Soccer) Only when two teams are playing does the game have any real significance for me, and I can truly get fired up.
When Scotland play (obviously) and also when England play. Ill support whoever is playing against England to the death
Cheers,
http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... c&start=34
Freiritter, this discussion between me and Sid might help you understand a little better. Greenhorn sums it up very well though...I like to watch International Football (Soccer) Only when two teams are playing does the game have any real significance for me, and I can truly get fired up.
When Scotland play (obviously) and also when England play. Ill support whoever is playing against England to the death
Cheers,
Jock
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sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi All,
Whereas I care little who wins at football, unless a team from the British Isles of whatever description is playing foreigners, in which case I would rather England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or Eire won than lost.
In home internationals I believe Scotland has beaten England more times than the reverse. These games seem to really matter to the Scots in a way that they don't to the English.
Cheers,
Sid.
Whereas I care little who wins at football, unless a team from the British Isles of whatever description is playing foreigners, in which case I would rather England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or Eire won than lost.
In home internationals I believe Scotland has beaten England more times than the reverse. These games seem to really matter to the Scots in a way that they don't to the English.
Cheers,
Sid.
Being from Northern Ireland i would class myself as Northern Irsh, Ulster-Scots(Scots-Irish for those from the USA) and British.Being British is what links us all together.Sport for the Scots when playing England is an extension of war for Northern Ireland playing anyone its means usually means getting beat. 
I am...
My family can trace itself back to 1675 at least in an unbroken line , and all the males were English, with no break...because we all were born and lived in England solely, never any other part of the UK. However, today my family live and are citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, or 'British'. I thus say we live in the 'UK', not 'England'. It rankles me though that Northern Irish, as against Ulstermen from the six counties, are said to come from 'Great Britain', and if they run for their nation have 'GBR' against their nationality...the island of Great Britain is the countries of England and Scotland, the Principality of Wales [Monmouthshire now being in Wales], the Duchy of Cornwall, and arguably the Duchy of Lancaster. The island of Ireland consists of Eire [the Irish Republic] and the Province of Northern Ireland.
Then we have the 'British Isles', which consists of the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, the crown colony of the Isle of Man [Manxmen], the Bailiwick of Jersey [Jersiais?], and the Bailwick of Guernsey [Guernsiais#] which includes the islands of Guernsey, Alderney, Sark, Herm, Jethou, Little Brechou, and Sark. Whilst citizens of these Crown Colonies speak English or Manx/Norman French, and look to the Queen as head of state, they are not part of the UK.
I have to say that the expression 'England' and 'English' in the context of this forum was most widely abused during WW2, with the convenient forgetting in speeches, propaganda and public war maps that there was Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as well! I suppose our Nederland friends get equally annoyed that their country is labelled 'Holland' rather than 'The Netherlands'.
Re Soccer/Football, because of an historical anomaly, namely that 'The Football Association' in London established and codified the game before the rest of the world*, the four nations, England, Northern ireland, Scotland and Wales, each have their own football assocations, plus Ireland's of course. The first international match ever played was between a team from England and one from Scotland. Because of this anomaly, each nation's association has jealously guarded the unique right to field five teams in EUFA and FIFA competition and until EUFA and FIFA agree that if a 'Great British' team that includes Northern Irish by the way, can be fielded without causing the four UK associations to lose their grandfather rights, then there will never be, for instance a British Olympic football team [last on was 1970?], or a British team in profesional international competion. Compare this with Rugby Union and Rugby League where we have the British Lions RU team, the British Isles RL team, plus the 'Ireland' RU team which consists of both men from Eire and NI.
* I am reminded that because the [British] Post Office under Rowland Hill invented the adhesive postage stamp, the words 'UK', 'Britain', etc. were never and will never be seen on any UK postage stamps as a result of this historic establishment. All other countries are required to quote their countries' names. Thus 'The Football Association' and 'The Rugby Football Assocation' etc. are so named and not 'English..Football Association'.
Then we have the 'British Isles', which consists of the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, the crown colony of the Isle of Man [Manxmen], the Bailiwick of Jersey [Jersiais?], and the Bailwick of Guernsey [Guernsiais#] which includes the islands of Guernsey, Alderney, Sark, Herm, Jethou, Little Brechou, and Sark. Whilst citizens of these Crown Colonies speak English or Manx/Norman French, and look to the Queen as head of state, they are not part of the UK.
I have to say that the expression 'England' and 'English' in the context of this forum was most widely abused during WW2, with the convenient forgetting in speeches, propaganda and public war maps that there was Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as well! I suppose our Nederland friends get equally annoyed that their country is labelled 'Holland' rather than 'The Netherlands'.
Re Soccer/Football, because of an historical anomaly, namely that 'The Football Association' in London established and codified the game before the rest of the world*, the four nations, England, Northern ireland, Scotland and Wales, each have their own football assocations, plus Ireland's of course. The first international match ever played was between a team from England and one from Scotland. Because of this anomaly, each nation's association has jealously guarded the unique right to field five teams in EUFA and FIFA competition and until EUFA and FIFA agree that if a 'Great British' team that includes Northern Irish by the way, can be fielded without causing the four UK associations to lose their grandfather rights, then there will never be, for instance a British Olympic football team [last on was 1970?], or a British team in profesional international competion. Compare this with Rugby Union and Rugby League where we have the British Lions RU team, the British Isles RL team, plus the 'Ireland' RU team which consists of both men from Eire and NI.
* I am reminded that because the [British] Post Office under Rowland Hill invented the adhesive postage stamp, the words 'UK', 'Britain', etc. were never and will never be seen on any UK postage stamps as a result of this historic establishment. All other countries are required to quote their countries' names. Thus 'The Football Association' and 'The Rugby Football Assocation' etc. are so named and not 'English..Football Association'.