I am trying to find some firm figures on German casualties on Sicily. The figure often quoted is 32,000, which compares poorly to the Allied 20,624.
Carlo D’Este, for example, gives casualties as:
Italian 2,000 Killed, 5,000 Wounded, 137,000 Prisoners;
German 5,000 Killed, 14,772 Wounded, 5,523 Prisoners;
The Italian Official History gives:
Italian 4,678 Killed, 122,204 Prisoners, 36,072 Missing;
German 4,325 Killed, 5,523 Prisoners, 4,583 Missing;
All of the above, and I could quote many less reliable books with other figures, simply show the amount of confusion and lack of hard facts in everything written in English about the Battle for Sicily. To take the example of German troops killed on Sicily, according to General Faldella there are 4,325 German dead buried in cemeteries in Sicily. Yet Sicily was one of the major transit areas for the evacuation of wounded from north Africa and Tunisia and it is likely that a significant number of the dead in Sicily died from wounds received in Africa or were naval casualties, airfield ground staff killed during the many air raids on airfields on Sicily or were aircrew killed in action or lost in operational accidents. Exactly the same applies to the Italian forces. Where, for example, were the recovered bodies of soldiers lost in transit by sea and air to Tunisia buried? The losses were significant and at least a proportion must have been recovered around Sicily. Similarly, many of the wounded Germans evacuated from Sicily must have been evacuated wounded originally from Tunisia or North Africa, yet they are counted as casualties from the Sicilian campaign.
The only figures I have, kindly supplied by Anders Frankson, which are incomplete for two of the three divisions, would tend to indicate that the German losses were significantly smaller than those normally quoted.
10-23 July
15 PzGren Div 60k, 309w, 272m = 641
H G Panzer Div 487k, 1488w, 1420m = 3,395
1-17 August
15 PzGren Div 201k, 658w, 474m = 1,333
H G Panzer Div 393k, 1193w, 83m = 1,669
29 PzGren Div 351k, 898w, 869m = 2,118 (Campaign total)
1 Fallsch. Div 3rd FJ Reg. lost 1,100, but this included sick.
4th FJ Reg. lost c.800, including sick.
Total 1,492 killed, 4,546 wounded, 3,118 missing + 1,900 FJ = 11,056
Even if we double this figure to take account of the missing week of 24th -31st July, and the other FJ and Fortress battalions, artillery and flak units, it is still very far short of the 'normal' 32,000. My estimate of, for example, HG Panzer Division's total losses on Sicily is 5,274 (of which 5,064 are included above).
Can anyone add any information to the above to help explain this massive discrepancy?
In anticipation.
Daniel Kane
Campaign in Sicily - German casualties
Moderator: sniper1shot
Re: Campaign in Sicily - German casualties
Hi Daniel! To add to your information, the report for HG is actually from the Meldung of 1 September for the period 1-31 August. It may be assumed that all the casualties were incurred from 1-17 August, but that is by no means certain. OTOH, the casualties given are just for HG and do not include the numerous attachments that were reported with the division (PzGrenRegt 115, Btl Reggio, and I/49 Flak). The actual total for all of them was:dankane wrote:I am trying to find some firm figures on German casualties on Sicily. The figure often quoted is 32,000, which compares poorly to the Allied 20,624.
10-23 July
15 PzGren Div 60k, 309w, 272m = 641
H G Panzer Div 487k, 1488w, 1420m = 3,395
1-17 August
15 PzGren Div 201k, 658w, 474m = 1,333
H G Panzer Div 393k, 1193w, 83m = 1,669
29 PzGren Div 351k, 898w, 869m = 2,118 (Campaign total)
1 Fallsch. Div 3rd FJ Reg. lost 1,100, but this included sick.
4th FJ Reg. lost c.800, including sick.
Total 1,492 killed, 4,546 wounded, 3,118 missing + 1,900 FJ = 11,056
Even if we double this figure to take account of the missing week of 24th -31st July, and the other FJ and Fortress battalions, artillery and flak units, it is still very far short of the 'normal' 32,000. My estimate of, for example, HG Panzer Division's total losses on Sicily is 5,274 (of which 5,064 are included above).
Can anyone add any information to the above to help explain this massive discrepancy?
In anticipation.
Daniel Kane
434 KIA, 1,323 WIA and 272 MIA = 2,029
In addition though, the division reported 2,998 sick and 157 miscellaneous "losses" for the month, for a total loss for all causes of 5,184. To balance that the division received just 1,504 replacements and 270 RTD, for a net decrease of 3,410. Overall, it appears likely that their "campaign losses" in battle casualties alone totaled at least 6,000.
In addition, 1 FJD reported a total of 1,181 losses for July (battle casualties) and 514 for August. So their campaign loss was likely 1,695.
The total losses of 15 PzGrenDiv are poorly reported, but were probably about 2,500-3,000.
Add in the losses reported for 29 PzGrenDiv (2,118) and the total is roughly 13,000 battle casualties, including losses in various smaller units.
Other indicators are that from 15-31 July 7,803 German WIA were reported evacuated from Sicily, with another 4,489 1-11 August and 1,240 11-17 August, a total of 13,532 WIA. In addition, a total of 6,623 Germans were reported captured by Allied forces. Thus the number of 4,325 KIA (in fact a total of 4,561 are buried there) may not be unreasonable as being close to the total incurred in the battle. Nevertheless, this all gives a total of just 24,480 German casualties, considerably less than the other estimates and probably much closer to the truth.
BTW, it appears that the Italian official report of prisoners was just the total number reported by the Seventh Army. But in fact that total included 3,457 Germans. Total Allied EPW were 122,204 for Seventh Army and 21,419 (3,166 Germans) by Eighth Army. It also appears certain that the Italian MIA figures are included for the most part in their prisoners, since the total Italian Army forces appear to have totaled about 203,678 of which 62,000 were evacuated (including 3,000 Regia Marina sailors), 4,678 were KIA, 137,000 were captured and an unknown number were missing.
Hope that helps.
Campaign in Sicily - German casualties
Dear Rich
Thank you very much for your considered and informative response. As usual, you share information that others have such difficulty obtaining.
The only overall figure of German casualties appears to be that given by von Bonin, who wrote after the war that the total German casualties in killed, wounded and missing amounted to about 10,000 (compare this to Field Marshal Montgomery's figure of 24,000 Germans killed alone).
Looking at the HG Division first. I agree that the figure of 1,669 relates to the whole of August. It is not clear in my source if the casualties for attached units (641 for 115 PzGren. Reg., 187 for Batt. Reggio and 35 for I/49 Flak=863) are included or excluded. I presume your figure for these units of 434 KIA, 1,323 WIA and 272 MIA = 2,029 covers the whole campaign? Do you have a breakdown of this by unit?
However, if we take the total of casualties for HG of between 5 and 6,000, who was to suffer these casualties in the division? Since the infantry bear most of the casualties (not including the sick), even in a panzer division, the HG only had three PzGren. Battalions, and Recon. and Pioneer battalions of its own. It had to have added from the start, the three battalions of 115 PzGren. Reg., Batt. Reggio and Fortress Batt. 904 and then II/PzGren. Reg. 382. It would not be unreasonable for these attached units to suffer at least half of the infantry casualties.
The first extant 'mainland' strength return on 28 August for 15 PzGren. Div. gave 12,189 against 16,043 (Faldella's figure) and HG Div. 15,679 against 17,601 (given by OKW, 12 July, of which 15,661 men are on Sicily). HG Division, as you note, had been reinforced by several non-divisional units throughout the campaign, and retained 115 PzGren. Reg. (strength at end of August c.1,368) under command into September 1943. This regiment is therefore probably included in the figure of 15,679, but not the earlier one of 17,601 (and similarly, would be included in 15 PzGren. Divs. Figure of 16,043, but not the 12,189). Do you have any reinforcement figures for other units?
Taking a risky Scenario one (at the lowest end of the casualties):
HG Division
c.5,500 (incl. 880 KIA, 2,681 WIA, 1,503 MIA= 5,064 accounted for).
15 PzGren. Division
c. 2,500 (incl. 261 KIA, 967 WIA, 746 MIA= 1,974 accounted for).
29 PzGren. Division
2,118 (351 KIA, 898 WIA, 869 MIA).
1 FJ Division
1,695 (do you have any breakdown of this and for original strength?).
Total c. 11,813 - not too far from von Bonin's figure of 10,000.
Scenario two, attached units shown separately and higher loss for HG/15 PzGren. Divs.
HG Division
c.6,000 (incl. 880 KIA, 2,681 WIA, 1,503 MIA= 5,064 accounted for).
Attachments to HG
2,029 (434 KIA, 1,323 WIA, 272 MIA).
15 PzGren. Division
c. 3,000 (incl. 261 KIA, 967 WIA, 746 MIA= 1,974 accounted for).
29 PzGren. Division
2,118 (351 KIA, 898 WIA, 869 MIA).
1 FJ Division
1,695 (do you have any breakdown of this?).
Total c. 14,842.
Now my point is, that the totals in both scenarios exceed the number of wounded evacuated from Sicily. So, many of these wounded must have related to another campaign, i.e. Africa, or may even include Italians. Similarly, the figure of 4.561 German war-dead buried in Sicily definitely includes the bodies of those killed or died from 1941 onwards. Is there not a case for significantly reducing even further the assessment of German casualties in Sicily?
Regards
Daniel.
Thank you very much for your considered and informative response. As usual, you share information that others have such difficulty obtaining.
The only overall figure of German casualties appears to be that given by von Bonin, who wrote after the war that the total German casualties in killed, wounded and missing amounted to about 10,000 (compare this to Field Marshal Montgomery's figure of 24,000 Germans killed alone).
Looking at the HG Division first. I agree that the figure of 1,669 relates to the whole of August. It is not clear in my source if the casualties for attached units (641 for 115 PzGren. Reg., 187 for Batt. Reggio and 35 for I/49 Flak=863) are included or excluded. I presume your figure for these units of 434 KIA, 1,323 WIA and 272 MIA = 2,029 covers the whole campaign? Do you have a breakdown of this by unit?
However, if we take the total of casualties for HG of between 5 and 6,000, who was to suffer these casualties in the division? Since the infantry bear most of the casualties (not including the sick), even in a panzer division, the HG only had three PzGren. Battalions, and Recon. and Pioneer battalions of its own. It had to have added from the start, the three battalions of 115 PzGren. Reg., Batt. Reggio and Fortress Batt. 904 and then II/PzGren. Reg. 382. It would not be unreasonable for these attached units to suffer at least half of the infantry casualties.
The first extant 'mainland' strength return on 28 August for 15 PzGren. Div. gave 12,189 against 16,043 (Faldella's figure) and HG Div. 15,679 against 17,601 (given by OKW, 12 July, of which 15,661 men are on Sicily). HG Division, as you note, had been reinforced by several non-divisional units throughout the campaign, and retained 115 PzGren. Reg. (strength at end of August c.1,368) under command into September 1943. This regiment is therefore probably included in the figure of 15,679, but not the earlier one of 17,601 (and similarly, would be included in 15 PzGren. Divs. Figure of 16,043, but not the 12,189). Do you have any reinforcement figures for other units?
Taking a risky Scenario one (at the lowest end of the casualties):
HG Division
c.5,500 (incl. 880 KIA, 2,681 WIA, 1,503 MIA= 5,064 accounted for).
15 PzGren. Division
c. 2,500 (incl. 261 KIA, 967 WIA, 746 MIA= 1,974 accounted for).
29 PzGren. Division
2,118 (351 KIA, 898 WIA, 869 MIA).
1 FJ Division
1,695 (do you have any breakdown of this and for original strength?).
Total c. 11,813 - not too far from von Bonin's figure of 10,000.
Scenario two, attached units shown separately and higher loss for HG/15 PzGren. Divs.
HG Division
c.6,000 (incl. 880 KIA, 2,681 WIA, 1,503 MIA= 5,064 accounted for).
Attachments to HG
2,029 (434 KIA, 1,323 WIA, 272 MIA).
15 PzGren. Division
c. 3,000 (incl. 261 KIA, 967 WIA, 746 MIA= 1,974 accounted for).
29 PzGren. Division
2,118 (351 KIA, 898 WIA, 869 MIA).
1 FJ Division
1,695 (do you have any breakdown of this?).
Total c. 14,842.
Now my point is, that the totals in both scenarios exceed the number of wounded evacuated from Sicily. So, many of these wounded must have related to another campaign, i.e. Africa, or may even include Italians. Similarly, the figure of 4.561 German war-dead buried in Sicily definitely includes the bodies of those killed or died from 1941 onwards. Is there not a case for significantly reducing even further the assessment of German casualties in Sicily?
Regards
Daniel.
Re: Campaign in Sicily - German casualties
dankane wrote:Looking at the HG Division first. I agree that the figure of 1,669 relates to the whole of August. It is not clear in my source if the casualties for attached units (641 for 115 PzGren. Reg., 187 for Batt. Reggio and 35 for I/49 Flak=863) are included or excluded. I presume your figure for these units of 434 KIA, 1,323 WIA and 272 MIA = 2,029 covers the whole campaign? Do you have a breakdown of this by unit?
The 2,029 is for the period 1-31 August and includes the division and it's attachments. By unit they were:
HG - 393 KIA, 1,193 WIA, 83 MIA
I/Flak 49 - 2 KIA
115 PzGrenRegt - 27 KIA, 108 WIA, 69 MIA
Btl Reggio - 12 KIA, 22 WIA, 120 MIA
The first extant 'mainland' strength return on 28 August for 15 PzGren. Div. gave 12,189 against 16,043 (Faldella's figure) and HG Div. 15,679 against 17,601 (given by OKW, 12 July, of which 15,661 men are on Sicily). HG Division, as you note, had been reinforced by several non-divisional units throughout the campaign, and retained 115 PzGren. Reg. (strength at end of August c.1,368) under command into September 1943. This regiment is therefore probably included in the figure of 15,679, but not the earlier one of 17,601 (and similarly, would be included in 15 PzGren. Divs. Figure of 16,043, but not the 12,189). Do you have any reinforcement figures for other units?
Soll/Iststaerke as of 1 September was:
HG - 18,466/12,327
I/Flak 49 - 1,138/1,134
115 PzGren Regt - 2,337/1,962
Reggio - 985/457
15 PzGren Div (31 August) - ?/12,296
29 PzGren Div (1 September) - 15,368/12,131
1 FJD (31 August?) - 14,019/11,355
Note that the Iststaerke actually includes soldiers in hospital sick or wounded (less than 8 weeks away from the division) as well as troops on leave. So on 1 September the HG Ist of 12,327 may include many if not most of the 3,798 WIA and sick, minus the 223 RTD reported for the month, as well as a portion of the 1,420 WIA reported in July and the sick for that month as well (again, minus any RTD). Thus it is not inconceivable that the Tagesstaerke of HG on 1 September may have been lower than 7,332!
Scenario two, attached units shown separately and higher loss for HG/15 PzGren. Divs.
HG Division
c.6,000 (incl. 880 KIA, 2,681 WIA, 1,503 MIA= 5,064 accounted for).
Attachments to HG
2,029 (434 KIA, 1,323 WIA, 272 MIA).
15 PzGren. Division
c. 3,000 (incl. 261 KIA, 967 WIA, 746 MIA= 1,974 accounted for).
29 PzGren. Division
2,118 (351 KIA, 898 WIA, 869 MIA).
1 FJ Division
1,695 (do you have any breakdown of this?).
Afraid not, but assume around 400 were probably KIA.
Total c. 14,842.
Now my point is, that the totals in both scenarios exceed the number of wounded evacuated from Sicily.
Sorry, but that is not correct. The number of wounded evacuated was 13,532. The total wounded in the above is only 5,869. We may assume that WIA in 1 FJD was no more than perhaps 1,200, and probably fewer, since some were captured. Call it 1,000 for simplicity and we still have 6,663 WIA unaccounted for, probably in HG and 15 PzGren Div.
And the number captured is another indicator. The Allies reported 6,623 Germans captured, the numbers of MIA in the total above is only 3,390. That would indicate that probably around 3,300 additional were MIA, a figure that cannot be accounted for by 1 FJD, so must be found in the 'missing' week for HG and 15 PzGren Div, possibly along with the bulk of the 'missing' 6,663 WIA. If we simply split this it would add another 3,300 WIA and 1,500 MIA to each of those divisions, which may not be far from reality. Thus, overall it is possible that the rough total of casualties was:
HG - 10,000+ !
15 PzGren Div - 6,800
29 Pz Gren Div - 2,118
1 FJD - 1,695
Total - 20,613
The total number evacuated are specifically given as German wounded and do not apparently include Italians or sick. It is unlikely that any would be from the African campaign, since the last evacuations from that were in the first week of May, some two months earlier. Given that 8 weeks was the limit that evacuated wounded were held on division rolls, then it is probable that most of these would have been evacuated to Germany for reassignment or release from service. It is simply very unlikely that many were held in Sicily at such a late date.So, many of these wounded must have related to another campaign, i.e. Africa, or may even include Italians. Similarly, the figure of 4.561 German war-dead buried in Sicily definitely includes the bodies of those killed or died from 1941 onwards. Is there not a case for significantly reducing even further the assessment of German casualties in Sicily?
The dead issue is more complex, but again it is unlikely that a large number died there. Other evidence is that the total number of dead to wounded ratio - about 4,500 to 14,000 or 3.1-to-1 is within the expected range for the Germans (normally about 2.5 to 3.5). Frankly I believe that the total of about 24,480 German battle casualties is probably about right.
Rich
Thank you very much for this further comprehensive reply. You have certainly given me plenty to think about, although I still think some of your estimates are on the high side. Be that as it may, you have ensured that I am much better informed than I was before. I'm going to look at the numbers of German troops moving in and out of Sicily to see if this can indicate a cap for German total losses. I'll pass on anything I find for your interest.
Regards
Daniel.
Thank you very much for this further comprehensive reply. You have certainly given me plenty to think about, although I still think some of your estimates are on the high side. Be that as it may, you have ensured that I am much better informed than I was before. I'm going to look at the numbers of German troops moving in and out of Sicily to see if this can indicate a cap for German total losses. I'll pass on anything I find for your interest.
Regards
Daniel.