Was Tank Night Vision Ever Employed En Mass?
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KampfgruppeMeyer
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Was Tank Night Vision Ever Employed En Mass?
Did the Germans ever use large quantities of night vision equipped tanks in mass movements on the battlefield? If so, did the infantry also have night-vision equipment of any type?
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue...
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laszlo.nemedi
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Re: Was Tank Night Vision Ever Employed En Mass?
If you refer to before 1945 then (by my sources in Hungary) NO. It was planned, and maybe built in for a some time, but it was not used.KampfgruppeMeyer wrote:Did the Germans ever use large quantities of night vision equipped tanks in mass movements on the battlefield? If so, did the infantry also have night-vision equipment of any type?
(I ready to hear new sources on that theme).
I am not expert after the WWII...
Re: Was Tank Night Vision Ever Employed En Mass?
KampfgruppeMeyer wrote:Did the Germans ever use large quantities of night vision equipped tanks in mass movements on the battlefield? If so, did the infantry also have night-vision equipment of any type?
After a trial period on 50 Panthers in March/April 1945, the Panthers of 3rd Company, 24th Pz.Reg. 116th Pz.Div were converted to carry the FG1250 infra red night vision system. Panthers of Panzer Divisions Clausewitz and Muncheberg also received the converted night sight Panthers.
Of note is that the Panthers of the Clausewitz Div. fitted with the infra red system detroyed an enitre battalion of british Comet tanks.
Does anyone have any more info on this topic?
Regards
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michael kenny
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Paul Hanson
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Yep, Michael, I'm all over this one. Sorry, Coldmeter, but this hoary old chestnut about P.D. Muncheberg and it's 50 Panthers appears roughly quarterly somewhere on the web with someone prattling about how the Germans used I/R in mass quantities.
Well, it ain't so! Kamen Nevenkin posted the best history of the Panthers with I/R I've seen to date. And notice when that date was and that it's from Feldgrau. Basically this myth was someone covering up damn poor nightfighting tactic on the British side.
PH
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 3:40 am Post subject: BIWA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi !
Paul statement, that no Panther with IR equipment
was ever used against the Allies, is correct. I whant
to apologize for the posting of incorrect information.
When I wrote my message I used only my memory. I checked
some files in my archive(various files of GenInspdPzTr
and OrgAbt/GenStbH) and now I'll try to "enlight" this
topic(IR Panthers).
An document issued by GenInspdPzTr on 26.6.44 states that,
according to Guderian orders, I./PzLehrR 130 will be the
first unit equiped with IR-PzV. This unit was created on
29.7.44,but was sent to the front(Western) without IR devices.
In the beginning of Oct'44 I./130 was sent back to the rear
(Fallingbostel training ground). Between 19.10 and 22.10.44
a total of 56 "simple" PzV(w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 27.9.44 it was ordered to send I./PzR 6 (tactically subordinated
to PzLehrDiv) to Fallingbostel training ground for rebuilding.
Between 29.10 and 4.11.44 a total of 33 "simple"
PzV(w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 7.11.44 I./130 was renamed in I./6 and vice versa.
On 29.8.44 it was orderd to send I./PzR 11(tactically subordinated
to 8.PzD) to Grafenwoenr training ground for
rebuilding. Between 22.10 and 27.10.44 a total of 28 "simple"
PzV (w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 4.11.44 an subordination of 4./PzR 11 to newly formed PzBr 150
was ordered.
A toatal of 27 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./6 between
17.11 and 4.12.44
A toatal of 32 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./11 between
11.11 and 2.12.44
4 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./130 on 9.12.44
All these units saw action in Hungary during Dec'44. The area
between lakes Balaton and Velence was, probably, the first
battleground where IR-PzV's were used.
On 5.1.45 it was ordered to send I./130 back to its parent division.
All available Panthers were left behind.
On 11.1.45 it was ordered to send I./24 to Hungary. This Abt was
tactically subordinated to 1.PzD. It was to be shipped from
Grafenwoenr training ground with 14 "simple" PzV. Another 46 "simple"
PzV's were to recieved during the transportation. However, according
to the records of GenInspdPzTr show that between 17.1 and 25.1.45 a
total of 50 "simple" PzV (w/o IR) were recieved by this unit. Probably
the remaining 10 PzV's were IR-PzV's(or some of them) left behind by
other units.
On 12.2.45 it was ordered one Kp of Fuehrer-Grenadier Division(1./101)
to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz 251/20. However, this order
was never materialized.
10 IR PzV's were recieved by 3./6 on 7.3.45. Right after that this Kp
was sent to its parent division(3.PzD)
On 13.3.45 it was ordered one Kp of 19.PzD and 26.PzD(4./27 and 3./26)
to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz 251/20 each.
On 16.3.45 it was ordered one PzKp of I./29 and one PzGrKp(of PzGR 25)
to be equiped with IR machines.
On 23.3.45 it was ordered one Kp of I./130, I./PzR "Brandenburg" and
KGr "Dreyer"(4./PzR 11) to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz
251/20 each.
On 23.3.45 10 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to the Kp of I./130 which
was mentioned above. Soon after that this Kp was shipped from Wuensdorf training ground to Muencheberg area where it was tactically subordinated to 25.PzGD.
On 1.4.45 1./29 and 2./PzGrR 25 was located in Wuensdorf training ground, and 4./27, 3./26, 4./11 and 4./"Br" - in Fallingbostel training ground. The same document states that a Kp of I./39 was sent from its parent division(17.PzD) to Fallingbostel to be equiped with IR-PzV's.
10 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./29 on 5.4.45.
10 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to 4./11 on 8.4.45.
On 19.4.45 the personal of 3./26 was shipped to PzD "Muencheberg",
the personal of 4./27 - back to 19.PzD and the personal of 4./"Br"
- back to PzGD "Kurmark".
On 19.4.45 it was ordered 4./11 alongside with PzGKp "Uelzen"(equiped
with SPW's with IR) to be shipped from Wuensdorf training ground to
7.PzD in Neusterlitz area. However, this order was chaged twice and
on 22.4.45 both Kp were attached to KGr "Ritter" in Zossen area.
Well, it ain't so! Kamen Nevenkin posted the best history of the Panthers with I/R I've seen to date. And notice when that date was and that it's from Feldgrau. Basically this myth was someone covering up damn poor nightfighting tactic on the British side.
PH
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 3:40 am Post subject: BIWA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi !
Paul statement, that no Panther with IR equipment
was ever used against the Allies, is correct. I whant
to apologize for the posting of incorrect information.
When I wrote my message I used only my memory. I checked
some files in my archive(various files of GenInspdPzTr
and OrgAbt/GenStbH) and now I'll try to "enlight" this
topic(IR Panthers).
An document issued by GenInspdPzTr on 26.6.44 states that,
according to Guderian orders, I./PzLehrR 130 will be the
first unit equiped with IR-PzV. This unit was created on
29.7.44,but was sent to the front(Western) without IR devices.
In the beginning of Oct'44 I./130 was sent back to the rear
(Fallingbostel training ground). Between 19.10 and 22.10.44
a total of 56 "simple" PzV(w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 27.9.44 it was ordered to send I./PzR 6 (tactically subordinated
to PzLehrDiv) to Fallingbostel training ground for rebuilding.
Between 29.10 and 4.11.44 a total of 33 "simple"
PzV(w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 7.11.44 I./130 was renamed in I./6 and vice versa.
On 29.8.44 it was orderd to send I./PzR 11(tactically subordinated
to 8.PzD) to Grafenwoenr training ground for
rebuilding. Between 22.10 and 27.10.44 a total of 28 "simple"
PzV (w/o IR) were recieved by this unit.
On 4.11.44 an subordination of 4./PzR 11 to newly formed PzBr 150
was ordered.
A toatal of 27 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./6 between
17.11 and 4.12.44
A toatal of 32 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./11 between
11.11 and 2.12.44
4 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./130 on 9.12.44
All these units saw action in Hungary during Dec'44. The area
between lakes Balaton and Velence was, probably, the first
battleground where IR-PzV's were used.
On 5.1.45 it was ordered to send I./130 back to its parent division.
All available Panthers were left behind.
On 11.1.45 it was ordered to send I./24 to Hungary. This Abt was
tactically subordinated to 1.PzD. It was to be shipped from
Grafenwoenr training ground with 14 "simple" PzV. Another 46 "simple"
PzV's were to recieved during the transportation. However, according
to the records of GenInspdPzTr show that between 17.1 and 25.1.45 a
total of 50 "simple" PzV (w/o IR) were recieved by this unit. Probably
the remaining 10 PzV's were IR-PzV's(or some of them) left behind by
other units.
On 12.2.45 it was ordered one Kp of Fuehrer-Grenadier Division(1./101)
to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz 251/20. However, this order
was never materialized.
10 IR PzV's were recieved by 3./6 on 7.3.45. Right after that this Kp
was sent to its parent division(3.PzD)
On 13.3.45 it was ordered one Kp of 19.PzD and 26.PzD(4./27 and 3./26)
to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz 251/20 each.
On 16.3.45 it was ordered one PzKp of I./29 and one PzGrKp(of PzGR 25)
to be equiped with IR machines.
On 23.3.45 it was ordered one Kp of I./130, I./PzR "Brandenburg" and
KGr "Dreyer"(4./PzR 11) to be equiped with 10 IR-PzV's and 3 SdKfz
251/20 each.
On 23.3.45 10 IR-PzV's were shipped from HZa to the Kp of I./130 which
was mentioned above. Soon after that this Kp was shipped from Wuensdorf training ground to Muencheberg area where it was tactically subordinated to 25.PzGD.
On 1.4.45 1./29 and 2./PzGrR 25 was located in Wuensdorf training ground, and 4./27, 3./26, 4./11 and 4./"Br" - in Fallingbostel training ground. The same document states that a Kp of I./39 was sent from its parent division(17.PzD) to Fallingbostel to be equiped with IR-PzV's.
10 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to I./29 on 5.4.45.
10 IR PzV's were shipped from HZa to 4./11 on 8.4.45.
On 19.4.45 the personal of 3./26 was shipped to PzD "Muencheberg",
the personal of 4./27 - back to 19.PzD and the personal of 4./"Br"
- back to PzGD "Kurmark".
On 19.4.45 it was ordered 4./11 alongside with PzGKp "Uelzen"(equiped
with SPW's with IR) to be shipped from Wuensdorf training ground to
7.PzD in Neusterlitz area. However, this order was chaged twice and
on 22.4.45 both Kp were attached to KGr "Ritter" in Zossen area.
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KampfgruppeMeyer
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Re: Was Tank Night Vision Ever Employed En Mass?
thanks cold!!!!!!!!!!Coldmeter wrote:KampfgruppeMeyer wrote:Did the Germans ever use large quantities of night vision equipped tanks in mass movements on the battlefield? If so, did the infantry also have night-vision equipment of any type?
After a trial period on 50 Panthers in March/April 1945, the Panthers of 3rd Company, 24th Pz.Reg. 116th Pz.Div were converted to carry the FG1250 infra red night vision system. Panthers of Panzer Divisions Clausewitz and Muncheberg also received the converted night sight Panthers.
Of note is that the Panthers of the Clausewitz Div. fitted with the infra red system detroyed an enitre battalion of british Comet tanks.
Does anyone have any more info on this topic?
Regards
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue...
>What a mess !!!
Ohh..all these documents regarding IR -Panther never ends...Ok..let me just this time say following : NEITHER I./11 (without 4.Komp) or I./130 (without its 1.Komp) or I./6 used any IR in Hungary in December 44 or early 45.
We have to separate wich units really used the IR in field and those that was listed on documents as "possible" units or crews from Pz.Rgt,s that was sent for schools. Remember very few units really used the IR in field...still in April 45 it was very new and expremetial. There is both good and bad results with the equippment.
However it was tested indeed in Hungary 44-45 by a few Panthers from a test unit (4 Panthers) - but was soon sent back to Germany.
Mirko
We have to separate wich units really used the IR in field and those that was listed on documents as "possible" units or crews from Pz.Rgt,s that was sent for schools. Remember very few units really used the IR in field...still in April 45 it was very new and expremetial. There is both good and bad results with the equippment.
However it was tested indeed in Hungary 44-45 by a few Panthers from a test unit (4 Panthers) - but was soon sent back to Germany.
Mirko
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Paul Hanson
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I/R Panthers
Hi Mirko;
Thanks for chiming in with some of your usual excellent research on these units.
Cheers,
Paul
Thanks for chiming in with some of your usual excellent research on these units.
Cheers,
Paul
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Paul Hanson
- Contributor
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:33 pm
I/R Panthers in the west
Rudel;
Did you read the above posts: NO USE OF I/R PANTHERS IN THE WEST !
Sorry, this continued myth of I/R Panthers against the Americans is just that: A MYTH. Your wargame booklet is trash! It never happened. There is no evidence of I/R Panthers used in any major action anywhere much less against the weaker(tank-wise)Western Allies.
PH
Did you read the above posts: NO USE OF I/R PANTHERS IN THE WEST !
Sorry, this continued myth of I/R Panthers against the Americans is just that: A MYTH. Your wargame booklet is trash! It never happened. There is no evidence of I/R Panthers used in any major action anywhere much less against the weaker(tank-wise)Western Allies.
PH
