a little mystery about a StuG unit

[Lupo Solitario]

Hi all

I'm actually a bit... perplexed about a Luftwaffe StuG unit. Apart that it had changed four names in less then two years, it 's always the same unit. In Fall 1944 (period I am interested in) it was the Fallschirm-Sturmgeschutz-Abteilung 11...well I got documents which give it (or at least part of it) on Italian front, I FJK sector. But if I look at reference on internet, they give it on western front in same period.
Do you have any explanation?

Thanks

Lupo

[DLI]

I'm as confused as you and everyone else. Web sources (for example Zweiter-Weltkrieg-Lexicon.de) generally have the Brigade moving to France in August 1944 following Operation Dragoon and subsequently being destroyed (or at any rate badly damaged) in the Nancy region of eastern France in mid-September during heavy fighting with the Americans. Afterwards it is supposed to have been rebuilt in Germany in October/November and to have participated in the Ardennes offensive with 7th Army in December.

Clear enough, except that there is also an admission that some part (or all) of the Brigade may have still been in Italy. For example, taking part in the Giogo Pass Battle on the Gothic line at the exact same time it was supposed to be being destroyed in Lorraine! This is a tiny unit (31 AFV at full strength) so it hardly seems credible that it would have been split up across different corps and armies in 2 different countries. Stuff gets repeated endlessly on websites, but I haven't found a single reference to a Wehrmacht document that places the Brigade in France in August/September 1944 (maybe I just haven't been looking hard enough [img]).

So, Lupo, I would love to hear what documents you have seen that place Fallschirm-Sturmgeschutz Brigade 11 in Italy in autumn 1944? Maybe they can help put to rest the notion that it ever was in France in autumn 1944.

[Lupo Solitario]

mainly this one:
http://194.242.233.149/ortdb/it/ortdbxp ... nvia+query

as you see, this is a database sponsorized by the DHI research institute showing all the known reference ot Whermacht units in italy in 1943-45 period. It's edited by a good friend of mine, Prof. Carlo Gentile of University of Koln, one of the most respected researchers about Whermacht in Italy.
the selected page lists all the references known to FS-StuG-Abt. 11 (there are also a couple of reference to other units) and you see the last one recorded is dated October 28, 1944, The abteilung is divided between some location around the city of Bologna in Northern Italy. I live in Bologna and I can grant I know well those places. That's anyway the last date about the unit in Italy and there are none about september. As you can see, in october 28 reference unit is listed without the Fallschirm- but as part of I. FJK but I believe it's always the same unit.
Data refers to a document listed as RH 20-10/181. I controlled there are many reference in the database for that date. I asked Carlo about it and he told me there's a map listing all those units but he had not it at moment in his own archives.

[DLI]

Lupo - many thanks for posting this information.

From memory (I don't have it with me) the 14th Army KTB for the period of the struggle for the Anzio-Nettuno Bridgehead references the unit in action with 1. FJK until June 1944. There is an English translation of the KTB available on the web.

As we don't have any confirmed references to the Brigade in the late summer and early autumn it is possible that it was sent to France during that period then returned to 1.FJK in Italy in October.

I'm still sceptical. It's frustrating that the main source for the version of events that has the Brigade in action in the region of Nancy in September is a now inaccessible link to this website! Here's the link - can anone help?

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 57cae6103f

[Lupo Solitario]

Jason made an archive years ago, but....

for the rest...where is the KTB you said? I've never seen it.

In itself the 11th-whichever (following its name changing is stressing) had always been under I.FJK during service in Italy AFAIK

[DLI]

It's on Jason Long's Panzerkeil page (sturmvogel.orbat.com)

[Lupo Solitario]

thanks

[DLI]

Lupo - I saw the reply to your post on AHF that gave the source (Die Fallschirmjager-Chronik 1934-1945) that places Fallschirm-Sturmgeschutz Brigade 11 in France in late summer 1944.

That's really helpful, though of course it doesn't square very well with your information that the unit was in Italy (again) in October.

Perhaps there are records of StuG deliveries to the unit that could shed some light on this? The 14th Army KTB states that it was still equipped with Italian-made assault guns at the end of May. Presumably it received German guns before going to France, and was replenished again after being rolled over by US 7th Army. It would be great to know when and to where deliveries were made. I wonder if Mr. Martin Block can help?

[hero.]

Hello Lupo and DLI !

I think DLI is looking for this thread :
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=13803&p=90276&hili ... ber#p89652

The information given by Ron Klages is in almost full agreement with E. Busch, Die Fallschirmjäger-Chronik 1935 - 1945.
From those sources, there is clear evidence that both StuG units were formed from January 1944 onward at several
training grounds inside of the Reich (Burg, Altengrabow). They continued their training as a formation near
Melun in France and both were ready for action at the end of May, 1944. After that they were deployed only in the west.


According to the designation :
The two units referred to in the above thread were originally designated :
Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 1 der Luftwaffe
Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 2 der Luftwaffe

In March they were renamed as Sturmgeschütz-Brigade 1 (and 2) der Luftwaffe.

In June 1944 they were renamed again as Fallschirm-Sturmgeschütz-Brigaden 11 and 12.
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=32740&start=0

All this points to the fact, that none of the units above should be able to show up in Italy in January/February 1944
(and be equipped with Italian Semoventes !) and none should have the "desired" designation at that time either.


However, from several sources (Busch (chapters on 4. Fsjg.Div., I. Fs.-Korps); Haupt, Kriegsschauplatz Italien;
KTB 14. Armee, database DHI Roma) it seems clear that there was such a Fallschirm-StuG unit involved
very early in containing the Anzio beachhead.

A possible solution could be a StuG Abteilung, equipped with surplus Semoventes, that received its designation from the
subordination to the former XI. Fliegerkorps already at the end of 1943 (maybe formed "auf dem Kommandowege" ?).
That unit would stay in place when the XI. Fliegerkorps was replaced by I. Fallschirm-Korps in January 1944 and would be
at hand to be committed at Anzio.

This suspicion is somehow confirmed by Busch, who mentions the formation of two new StuG-Brigaden in spring 1944
"besides the already existing Fallschirm-Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung" of the I. Fs.-Korps (page 254).

I don't know whether this unit is somehow connected to Sturmgeschütz-Brigade Schmitz, FPN 54774, which according
to Tessin, Vol. 17, shows up in 1944 at : Viterbo, Futa-Pass, Bologna and is mentioned in VBL-LA/56.
Maybe a possible trace to follow ?

Some interesting links as well :
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... d9a3dcedb0
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1204796
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1066916

Best regards,

hero.

[Doktor Krollspell]

Hello Gentlemen!

All this points to the fact, that none of the units above should be able to show up in Italy in January/February 1944
(and be equipped with Italian Semoventes !) and none should have the "desired" designation at that time either.


However, from several sources (Busch (chapters on 4. Fsjg.Div., I. Fs.-Korps); Haupt, Kriegsschauplatz Italien;
KTB 14. Armee, database DHI Roma) it seems clear that there was such a Fallschirm-StuG unit involved
very early in containing the Anzio beachhead.

A possible solution could be a StuG Abteilung, equipped with surplus Semoventes, that received its designation from the
subordination to the former XI. Fliegerkorps already at the end of 1943 (maybe formed "auf dem Kommandowege" ?).
That unit would stay in place when the XI. Fliegerkorps was replaced by I. Fallschirm-Korps in January 1944 and would be
at hand to be committed at Anzio.

This suspicion is somehow confirmed by Busch, who mentions the formation of two new StuG-Brigaden in spring 1944
"besides the already existing Fallschirm-Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung" of the I. Fs.-Korps (page 254).

I don't know whether this unit is somehow connected to Sturmgeschütz-Brigade Schmitz, FPN 54774, which according
to Tessin, Vol. 17, shows up in 1944 at : Viterbo, Futa-Pass, Bologna and is mentioned in VBL-LA/56.
Maybe a possible trace to follow?

That there was a Sturmgeschütz-Brigade, commanded by a Major Schmitz, that participated in the first assaults toward the Anzio beachhead on January 22 is also confirmed by Hans-Martin Stimpel in his "Die deutsche Fallschirmtruppe 1942-1945: Einsätze auf Kriegsschauplätzen im Süden" (2nd ed. 2006). It's unclear though if it's a Heer or a Fallschirmjäger unit...

Am Morgen des 22. januar 1944 um 5.30 Uhr traf ein fernmündliche Nachricht des in Rom befindlichen "Korpsstab Schlemmer" (nicht mit General Schlemm zu verwechseln!) ein: "Alarm! Feind beiderseits Nettuno gelandet!" In höchster Eile wurde das Battaillon Hauber (Führung: Hauptmann Hauber) mit allen vorhandenen Fahrzeugen ausgestattet und nach Albano (ca. 30 kilometer nördlich Anzio) verlegt. Von jetzt an stießen beinahe stündlich Einheiten verschiedener Division zur Kampfgruppe, darunter eine Abteilung mit zunächst 20 (am nächsten Tag mit 48) Sturmgeschützen inter Führung von Major Schmitz, eine "Kompanie Schwebbach" mit sechs Tiger-Panzern und die Flak-Abteilungen 241 und 99 mit ingesamt drei schweren und vier leichten Batterien. Ihre erste Aufgabe war die Sicherung des Aufmarsches der eigenen Kräfte, die Sperrung der wichtigsten Zufahrtswege in Höhe der Eisnbahnlini Falcognana - Palombo - Campleone (ca. 25 Kilometer nördlich Anzio) sowie die Aufklärung bis in den Raum Aprilia - Zollforata, womit sich die vordern Einheiten der Landungszone auf etwa 15-20 Kilometer Entfernung nähern sollten.

Regards,

Krollspell

[Lupo Solitario]

all my data agree on:

-Schmitz brigade was a Luftwaffe unit
-it was a different unit from brigade 11

[DLI]

Hello All

Many thanks Hero for your post here and on the related subject 'from XI Fliegerkorps to FJ-Korpen and Armee.'
It does seem clear that after all there was NO relationship between the Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 1 der Luftwaffe (later Fallschirm-Sturmgeschütz-Brigade 11) and the Sturmgeschutz-Abteilung/XI Fliegerkorps and that the former was raised (and first saw action) in France whereas the latter was raised and saw action in Italy.

I guess the main source of the confusion is that Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 1 der Luftwaffe should in theory have served as corps troops with I. Fallschirm-Korps (but never did), whereas I. Fallschirm-Korps was set up in Italy and 'suceeded' XI Fliegerkorps in the task of organising the coastal defence south of Rome, and the Sturmgeschutz-Abteilung/XI Fliegerkorps did actually become one of its corps assets in the fighting for the Anzio bridgehead. Some authors (e.g. Lombardi) and websites have therefore assumed a genealogical link between Sturmgeschutz-Abteilung/XI Fliegerkorps and Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 1 der Luftwaffe/Fallschirm-Sturmgeschütz-Brigade 11 which does not in fact exist.

Okey dokey (though it would be great to see a Western Front German OB that confirms the presence of Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 1 der Luftwaffe/Fallschirm-Sturmgeschütz-Brigade 11 in France).

Doktor Krollspell's post does raise the question as to whether the actual genealogical link is between Sturmgeschutz-Abteilung/XI Fliegerkorps and Fallschirm-Sturmgeschutz-Brigade Schmitz/Fallschirm-Sturmgeschutz-Brigade 21. Some sources provide a different account of the Schmitz unit's genesis (supposedly raised from 2./Fallschirm-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 2 in June 1944, though the parent division was in France), but the quotation from Stimpel is unoquivocal. The common denominator in all references to Sturmgeschutz-Abteilung/XI Fliegerkorps and Fallschirm-Sturmgeschutz-Brigade Schmitz is that it/they were equipped with Italian-made assault guns.