HG vs Russian Third Tank Corps on 29.07.44

[Igorn]

Gents,

I came across on the Russian miltary forums some information about tank engagement of the Soviet 3rd Tank Corps against Jagdpanzer IV\L 48 of HG, which took place in Poland on 29 July 1944. According to information provided combat began in the morning when Jagdpanzer IV\L 48 ambushed and knocked out two JS-2 of the 3rd Russian Tank Corps. About 13.00 the same day, twelve T-34 appeared on the battlefield and were attacked by German Jagdpanzer IV. While combat was going on another combat group of T-34s bypassed German SP guns from the rear and knocked out three Jagdpanzer IVs. Two more Jagdpanzer IVs get bogged down in mud and were abandoned on the battlefield.
Allegedly, a cousin of Herman Goering was killed in this combat.

I would greatly appreciate any info about this tank engagement.

Thanks and Regards,

Igor

[Martin Block]

Igorn, that is basically correct except that it was not the cousin but the nephew of the Reichsmarschall, Oberleutnant Heinz Theodor Göring. According to an eyewitness report published in F. Kurowski's 'History of Fsch.Pz.Korps HG' Obtl. Göring was badly injured in the face and right arm by splinters from a tank shell exploding in a nearby tree while being outside of his Jagdpz. IV. He was directing the tanks of his platoon into their firing positions. One of the accompanying Grenadiere from the III./Pz.Gren.Rgt. HG delivered first aid and Oblt. Göring was loaded together with several other wounded men on the back of a Jagdpz. IV to carry them to the rear. This Jagdpz. (Fw. Fleischmann) was then knocked out by a T-34 and it seems that Oblt. Göring was then either killed instantly or at least died not long after.

Martin Block

[Igorn]

Martin, thanks for your reply. You know, I was not sure whether to purchase F. Kurowski's 'History of Fsch.Pz.Korps HG' because I heard negative references about this book and Kurowski as a military historian. Do you recommnd this book? Can you recommend some good source/book on the combats of Fsch.Pz.Korps HG' in Poland? Do you have in your collections any German combat reports of Fsch.Pz.Korps HG' dated July-Sep 1944.

Thanks a lot.

Best Regards from Russia,

[Martin Block]

Well Igorn, there are good reasons for the negative references there really are! But since there is hardly anything else published regarding HG units let's say it politely: It's better than noting. But it is true there are many errors in it and one shouldn't always rely on the given details.

I should mention that I may not be up-to-date regarding other books about HG. I have to say that for quite some time now I hardly do buy books anymore but rather invest all spare money into visiting archives and buying archive material. Unfortunately the Luftwaffe seems to have been very effective in destroying its paperwork and documentation of HG units is rather poor. Among others I do have the monthly HG status reports for July, August and September 1944 and many Pz.Lage reports from the AOK 9 war diary but so far I have no further special combat reports, experience reports etc.

Martin Block

[Igorn]

Martin, if there is no better book on the history of HG and this combat in particular I will order Kurovsky's book. Anyway, thanks for your information.

Best Regards from Russia,

[Igorn]

Among others I do have the monthly HG status reports for July, August and September 1944 and many Pz.Lage reports from the AOK 9 war diary Martin Block

Hi Martin, I hope you are fine. Having read chapters of Kurovsky book on HG dedicated to combats near Siennice and Pogorzel 27.07.44 - 31.07.44 he provides detais of the losses of eight JgPz IV and one Pz-IV including the circumstances of the death of Heinz Goering. But this book does not contain any monthly HG status reports. I know that HG arrived to Poland with 64 units of Pz IV, 3 units of Befl Pz IV and 31 Jg. Pz IV. I would be very greatful to you if you provide some information on the vehicles status of HG as of 1.09.1944. I wonder how many of 31 Jg Pz IV survived combats in Poland.

PS. According to Kamen's book (Fire Brigades) as of 1.09.1944 had 37 Pz IV (29 operational) but he didn't provide infor on the number of available Jg Pz IV.

Thanks and Regards,

[Martin Block]

Hello Igor,

Hope you are well too! According to the status report as of 1.9.1944 the Fsch.Pz.Div. HG still had 20 Jagdpz. IV on hand in the III./Fsch.Pz.Rgt. HG.
Of these 14 were reported operational and 4 in short term repair which leaves 2 for long term repair, i.e. 11 must have been lost during the first month of combat on the Eastern Front. I'm a bit confused about the number of Pz. IV that you found in Kamen's book. Actually the report of 1.9.1944 does list 43 Pzkpfwg. IV on hand, 29 of them operational, 8 in short term repair which leaves 6 in long term repair.

BTW, I have also some slightly different Pz. IV figures for 1.8.1944 from my available records: The 64 Pz. IV already included the 3 Bef.Pz. IV.
All 'old' tanks had to be left behind in Italy and delivery records show that 40 new Pz. IV and 3 Bef.Pz. IV were shipped from the ordnance depots on 24./28.7.1944. Another 21 Pz. IV were supplied from the stocks of the Ersatzheer on 29.7.1944.

Regards,

Martin Block

[Igorn]

Martin,

Thanks for the information on HG Jg. Pz IVs! You are right, the 3 Bef.Pz. IV were most likely included in The 64 Pz. IV. I just checked it at Jentz and Kamen book.
As far as the source for information for 37 Pz IV as of 1.09.44 we should probably ask him through the PM.

PS. Martin, by the way can you help me with the status reports for 23 PD, 24 PD and 14 PD for May-June 1944. I was a bit confused since it seems that, for example, 14 P.D was reinforced by some StuG Brigades (e.g. StuG Brigade 243). In addition some replacements was sent (e.g. on 23/24.06.44 24 Pz V were shipped to II/Pz Rgt 23 or on 5-7/06.44 70 Pz V were shipped to I/Pz. Rgt 24) but it was not clear when these units actually got them and what were their actual losses for May-June 1944. Another problem I don't get how number of Pz -III in 24 PD from 1.4.44 to 1.7.44 increased from 3 to 11 if according to information published in Kamen's book 24 P.D. didn't get any Pz III replacements for this period. The same applies for StuG. As of 1.4.44 24. PD supposedly had 8 StuG and on 1.7.44 it had 23 StuG. No relacements in StuG was indicated. From where 15 StuG came out is not clear. The same in 23 PD. No StuG indicated in report for 1.4.44 but 21 StuG appeared on 1.07.44. No information abour replacements/reinforcements.

In return I can provide you strength and loss figures for the Russian 2-nd, 5th Grds Tank Armies for the same period or data on the strength/losses of th 2-nd Russian Tank Army for any period.

Another episode I am interested in is the tank engagement in March 1943 near Sevsk where supposedly units of 4 PD fought against 10 Grds Tank Brigade of the 2 Tank Army. While I have comprehansive information on the Russian side I don't have strength and loss figures for March 1944 of the German side (4 PD ?).

Thanks and Regards,

[Martin Block]

Igor,

I'm working on a reply for you but it may take a while because during the next couple of days I will be a bit short on spare time. Weekend is over and the 'real life' is calling again

Martin Block

[Panzeralex]

Hallo Martin and Igor,
I can provide some info about AFVs “HG” during 28.7.43-14.8.43
28.7.44
combat ready - ? (no info)
total loss – 1 Pz.Jg. IV
29.7.44
In the evening, combat ready – no info
total loss – 6 Pz.Jg IV, 1 Pz IV
30.7.44
In the evening:
19 Pz IV combat ready, 2 Pz IV in repair, 41 Pz IV in transit
16 PzJg IV combat ready, 8 PzJg IV in repair
1 Marder combat ready
Total loss 1 Pz IV
Attached 3./Pz Rgt 27 with 5 combat ready Panther
31.7.44
In the evening:
13 Pz IV combat ready, 6 Pz IV in repair, 41 Pz IV in transit
18 PzJg IV combat ready, 6 PzJg IV in repair
? Marder combat ready
Total loss 2 Pz IV
Attached 3./Pz Rgt 27 with 5 combat ready Panther
1.8.44
In the evening:
19 Pz IV combat ready, 2 Pz IV in repair, 41 Pz IV in transit
16 PzJg IV combat ready, 8 PzJg IV in repair
1 Marder combat ready
Total loss 1 Pz IV
Attached 3./Pz Rgt 27 with 5 combat ready Panther
2.8.44
In the evening:
35 Pz IV combat ready, 3 Pz IV in repair
23 PzJg IV combat ready, 1 PzJg IV in repair
? Marder combat ready
Total loss 0
Attached 3./Pz Rgt 27 with 5 combat ready Panther
3.8.44
In the evening:
43 Pz IV combat ready, 16 Pz IV in repair
13 PzJg IV combat ready, 11 PzJg IV in repair
? Marder combat ready
Total loss 0
Attached 3./Pz Rgt 27 with 5 combat ready Panther
4.8.44
In the evening:
36 Pz IV combat ready, 11 Pz IV in repair
20 PzJg IV combat ready, 4 PzJg IV in repair
? Marder combat ready
Total loss 2 Pz IV
Attached 3./Pz Rgt 27 with 5 combat ready Panther
5.8.44
In the evening:
13 Pz IV combat ready, 43 Pz IV in repair
13 PzJg IV combat ready, 11 PzJg IV in repair
2 Marder combat ready, 2 Marder in repair
Total loss 1 Pz IV in Warszawie
6.8.44
About combat ready AFVs status no info.
Total loss 1 Pz IV
7.8.44
no info
8.8.44
In the evening:
23 Pz IV combat ready, 28 Pz IV in short-term repair, 4 Pz IV in long-term repair
16 PzJg IV combat ready, 7 PzJg IV in short-term repair, 1 PzJg IV in long-term repair
3 Marder combat ready, 1 Marder in short-term repair
Total loss 0
9.8.44
In the evening:
10 Pz IV combat ready, 37 Pz IV in short-term repair, 4 Pz IV in long-term repair
9 PzJg IV combat ready, 10 PzJg IV in short-term repair, 3 PzJg IV in long-term repair
1 Marder combat ready, 3 Marder in short-term repair
Total loss 4 Pz IV, 2 Pzjg IV (report as loss on 8.8.43)
10.8.44
In the evening:
11 Pz IV combat ready, 36 Pz IV in short-term repair, 4 Pz IV in long-term repair
10 PzJg IV combat ready, 9 PzJg IV in short-term repair, 3 PzJg IV in long-term repair
1 Marder combat ready, 3 Marder in short-term repair
Total loss 0
11.8.44
In the evening:
19 Pz IV combat ready, 25 Pz IV in short-term repair, 6 Pz IV in long-term repair
11 PzJg IV combat ready, 8 PzJg IV in short-term repair, 3 PzJg IV in long-term repair
1 Marder combat ready, 3 Marder in short-term repair
Total loss 1 Pz IV
12.8.44
In the evening:
17 Pz IV combat ready, 25 Pz IV in short-term repair, 8 Pz IV in long-term repair
9 PzJg IV combat ready, 8 PzJg IV in short-term repair, 3 PzJg IV in long-term repair
0 Marder combat ready, 4 Marder in short-term repair
Total loss 1 PzJg IV and 1 PzJg IV report as loss on 11.8.44
13.8.44
In the evening:
20 Pz IV combat ready, 19 Pz IV in short-term repair, 10 Pz IV in long-term repair
12 PzJg IV combat ready, 5 PzJg IV in short-term repair, 3 PzJg IV in long-term repair
1 Marder combat ready, 3 Marder in short-term repair
Total loss 1 Pz IV and 2 Pz IV mentioned as loss in reports from 14.8.44 and 15.8.44
14.8.44
In the evening:
23 Pz IV combat ready, 13 Pz IV in short-term repair, 10 Pz IV in long-term repair
14 PzJg IV combat ready, 3 PzJg IV in short-term repair, 3 PzJg IV in long-term repair
3 Marder combat ready, 4 Marder in long-term repair
Total loss 1 Pz IV report as loss on 13.8.44

Source article: Robert Wroblewski Divizja “Hermann Goring” latem 1944 roku na froncie. (in Poland journal Militaria Nr 3(6),
Robet Wrobelski used varoious documents A.O.K. 9 from NARA.

best regards
Panzeralex

[Panzeralex]

According to the status report as of 1.9.1944 the Fsch.Pz.Div. HG still had 20 Jagdpz. IV on hand in the III./Fsch.Pz.Rgt. HG.
Of these 14 were reported operational and 4 in short term repair which leaves 2 for long term repair, i.e. 11 must have been lost during the first month of combat on the Eastern Front.

Some additional
If the evening of 12 July, in "HG" were only 20 Jagdpz. IV (9 PzJg IV combat ready, 8 PzJg IV in short-term repair, 3 PzJg IV in long-term repair), it means that 11 Jagdpz. IV were totaly lost during 28.7.44-12.8.44, but not for the entire month, and between 13.8.44-1.9.44 - were totaly lost 0 Jagdpz. IV.

best regards
Panzeralex

[Panzeralex]

Some info about Soviet 2 TA.
Status on 18.7.44
combat ready
T-34/76, T-34/85 - 473
M4A2 Sherman - 140
IS-2 - 41
Valentine MK-9 - 10
SU-85 - 63
SU-76 - 41
SU-57-21
and in repair
IS-2 - 1
SU-76 - 1

Status on 4.8.44
combat ready
T-34/76, T-34 - 85 - 221
M4A2 Sherman - 57
IS-2 - 24
Valentine MK-9 - 7
SU-85 - 34
SU-76 - 35
SU-57-16

Total losses AFVs 2 TA during 20.7.44-8.8.44 (according loss report from Stab 2 TA) :
T34 - 155
M4A2 - 48
IS-2 - 4
MK-9 - 3
SU-85 - 18
SU-76 - 15
SU-57 - 1
*******
and an additional 150 tanks and SP guns were in repair

best regards
Panzeralex

[Martin Block]

@Panzeralex

Thanks for the info!

Martin Block

[Igorn]

Panzeralex,

Thanks on the info of HG Jg Pz! As far as losses of 2 TA are concerned they were known to me before and were published before by Zolotorev in his Terra Poland volume. It is important to underline that these losses were taken in combats not only with HG division but also with 4 P.D, 19 P.D, SS-W, SS-T and 73 ID and some other units.

Losses of HG in JgPz and Pz-IV from July 27th to 31st near Sennitsa and Pogorzhel were inflicted mostly by the units of the 8th Guards Tank Corps of General Popov belonging to 2 TA. Kurovsky in his book provided very good account of HG Jg. Pz commander who witnessed this battle and provided detais of the destruction of 9 German vehicles near Pogorzhel.

Best Regards,

[Igorn]

If the evening of 12 July, in "HG" were only 20 Jagdpz. IV (9 PzJg IV combat ready, 8 PzJg IV in short-term repair, 3 PzJg IV in long-term repair), it means that 11 Jagdpz. IV were totaly lost during 28.7.44-12.8.44, but not for the entire month, and between 13.8.44-1.9.44 - were totaly lost 0 Jagdpz. IV.

This means that almost all 11 JgPz IV were lost in combats against units of 2 TA, mostly 8th Guards Tank Corps.

Best Regards,