Use of French Ships

[Carl Schwamberger]

What, if any, plans were there for using French (or other nations) ships for German military purposes? I understand the armistice agreement did not hand over directly any French war ships to the KM (correct?). Were there any contingency plans for using any French warships if the circumstances warranted?

[phylo_roadking]

Carl, I'll refer you to

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 87&start=0

...where the issue of the Germans getting their hands on the French Fleet is discussed as a What-If. Basically the answer is - the biggest part of the french Fleet was under Vichy control - but constrained by the Armistice to being gradually decommissioned, except for a part required for colonial defence...to be decided by the Germans! (But manned and under the control of Vichy) The Germans didn't WANT the French Fleet - they wanted it off the gameboard, but didn't demand it be handed over...as Darlan had already withdrawn it to North Africa before the Armistice was signed, and any FURTHER demands on the Fleet beyond its "neutralisation" would have (as discussed elsewhere!) sent the French Government to North Africa to carry on the fight, if not actually persuaded Darlan to sail for Britain and hammer out some sort of deal with DeGaulle. Not "taking" the French Fleet was one of the ways the germans ensured the French didn't fight on.

In 1942, certainly the Germans expected and WERE expected to sieze the fleet under Case Anton - which is why Darlan gave the order for the Fleet to be scuttled at Toulon - whither it had hightailed to after Mers-el-Kebir two years earlier. Some were later raised and repaired IIRC by the Germans.

That deals with the vast majority of the French Fleet, apart from the much smaller Free French FNFL, and the several French units siezed and interned by the British in a number of ports at the same time as Mers-el-Kebir and as part of the same Operation Catapault.

HOWEVER....note - "vast majority"...

As of the Armistice on June 22nd, 1940 - its provisions to be used in the colonies or be moored up and disarmed ONLY applied to the French Fleet still in FRENCH hands on that date - quite a number of smaller units, damaged and undamaged, had fallen into German hands in Channel and Atlantic ports, especially units damaged at and moored up after Dunkirk. Many of these were put into German service for a time, with many later being moored up as flakships. Also, just as the French were in the middle of rebuilding and modernising their air force on May 10th, 1940...they had ALSO been in the process of expanding their navy. The Germans also took possession of a number of destroyers on the stocks; some they finished, some in Vichy's metropolitan French ports they allowed Vichy to complete, or start to complete...for it was on an as-and-when basis that raw materials were freed up for the purpose. Same too with the destroyers taken possession of in Occupied France; don't forget Brest was the French Navy's biggest peacetime base and was in German hands; a couple were finshed and launched IIRC after several stops and starts, but didn't see a lot of use.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Hmmm... yes a few were used by Germany. Which implys some sort of plan, even if made on the fly at the last minute. I dont recall seeing it on the discussion thread you posted, will look again.

thanks

[Waleed Y. Majeed]

What, if any, plans were there for using French (or other nations) ships for German military purposes?

The first boats officially to change hands due to German demands in 1941 were 6 Torpedo-boats (Glenten-Class). The Danish navy was still active after April 9th 1940, like the rest of the armed forces until Operation Safari, August 29th 1943 changed it all.

Most of the ships were scuttled in the early hours of the 29th 1943 so as to prevent the Germans from taking control of the navy. Of the 52 ships in the navy, 32 were scuttled, 24 escaped to "neutral" Sweden, 2 already safe in Greenland and only 14 were captured. Those which escaped to Sweden were later incorporated into the Danish Flotilla and returned in May 1945 with the Danish Brigade.

Active (under German occupation/demands/permissions) meant mine-clearing between the Danish isles (east-west lanes, Germans had north to south), coast guarding the Danish/Swedish (maritime) border and two operated around Greenland.

One of the ships, Niels Iuel (on a training cruise!) was attacked by planes and damaged while trying to escape to Sweden resulting in her crew setting her a ground. Later salvaged, rearmed as Flak & Training skip and renamed Nordland only to be scuttled again in 1945. Several of the other scuttled ships were raised, some repaired and reused by the Germans.
See more here: http://www.navalhistory.dk/English/Hist ... gust29.htm


waleed

[Carl Schwamberger]

Thanks. So, as I suspected the Germans were not adverse to using other nations ships. The torpedo boats sound like a easy item.

Now there is just the Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians, French, et al...

[Waleed Y. Majeed]

Most of the Norwegian Navy fought hard on allied side. Some destroyed in the fighting after "Weserübung", some escaped and fought on allied side and some were taken over by the Germans.

Here's a bit on the Trygg-class torpedo boats:

All three Trygg vessels were lost during World War II, one while in Norwegian service and two after having been pressed into service as Torpedoboot Ausland by their German captors.

The two boats in German sevice (Trygg and Snygg) were renabed Zick and Zack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trygg_clas ... boat#Fates

I'm sure ships of the Royal Netherlands Navy (a lot of ships being in the Far-east!) experienced similar fates as the Norwegian. Remember, the heads of state and royal families of both these countries managed to escape to England and established "new" armed forces. The Danish Navy surrendered and was put under "house arrest" along with the King by the Germans. Not sure about the Belgian Navy


waleed

[Carl Schwamberger]

I suspose all that applies to the Greek, Yugoslav, Polish, & Andorian navys. Few remained for the Germans to exploit. This leaves the French which had more than a few ships remaining. Several folks have told me the political/military goal of the Germans that was executed was the nuetralization of the French ships, which fits the translations of the section of the Armistice that have been quoted to me. But, this still leaves the question of what plans, studies, or evaluations the Germans may have made for use of French ships. It seems logical that there was some sort of report or whatever in the file cabinet.

[phylo_roadking]

Carl, I wouldn't assume there were plans for the RE-use of the Vichy French Fleet as of 1940 - as the German intention was clearly for this to be recalled to metropolitan France, laid up permanently AND disarmed. See the Articles of the Armistice.

However - by 1942 and Case Anton things aren't quite so clear. Certainly the Germans formulated Operation Lila to attempt to SIEZE the French Fleet in Toulon...

On 19 November, Operation Lila was triggered by the Germans, with the objective of capturing Toulon and the French fleet, with an execution date of 27 November.

German forces were to enter Toulon from the east, capturing Fort Lamalgue, headquarters of Admiral Marquis, and Mourillon arsenal; and from the west, capturing the main arsenal and the coastal defences. German naval forces were cruising off the harbour to engage any ships attempting to flee, and naval mines were laid.

At 4:30am on the morning of November 27, the Germans entered Fort Lamalgue and arrested Marquis, but failed to prevent his chief of staff, contre-amiral Robin, from calling the chief of the arsenal, Contre-Amiral Dornon. The attack came as a complete surprise to the Vichy officers, but Dornon transmitted the order to scuttle the fleet to Admiral Laborde, aboard the flagship Strasbourg. Laborde was taken aback by the German treason, but transmitted orders to prepare for scuttling, and to fire on any unauthorised personnel approaching the ships.

Twenty minutes later, German troops entered the arsenal and started machine-gunning the French submarines. Some of the submarines set sail to scuttle in deeper water. Casabianca left her moorings, sneaked out of the harbour and dived at 5:40am, escaping to Algiers.

The German main force got lost in the arsenal and was behind schedule by one hour; when they reached the main gates of the base, the sentries pretended to need paperwork so as to delay the Germans without engaging in open fight. At 5:25am, German tanks finally rolled through, and Strasbourg immediately transmitted the order "Scuttle! Scuttle! Scuttle!" by radio, visual signals and dispatch boat. French crews evacuated, and scuttling parties started preparing demolition charges and opening sea valves on the ships.

At 6:45am fighting broke out around Strasbourg and Foch, killing a French officer and wounding five sailors. When naval guns started engaging the German tanks, the Germans attempted to negotiate; a German officer demanded that Laborde surrender his ship, to which the admiral answered that the ship was already sunk.

As Strasbourg settled on the bottom, her captain ordered the ignition of the demolition charges, which destroyed the armament and vital machinery, as well as igniting her fuel stores. Strasbourg was a total loss. A few minutes after, the cruiser Colbert exploded.

The German party attempting to board the cruiser Algérie heard the explosions and tried to persuade her crew that scuttling was forbidden under the armistice provisions. However, the demolition charges were detonated, and the ship burned for twenty days.

Meanwhile, the captain of the cruiser Marseillaise ordered his ship capsized and demolition charges lit. German troops requested permission to come aboard; when this was denied, they did not attempt to board. The ship sank and exploded, burning for seven days.

German troops forcibly boarded the cruiser Dupleix, put her crew out of the way, and closed her open sea valves. The ship's captain, capitaine de vaisseau Moreau, ordered the scuttling charges in the main turrets to be lit with shortened fuses and when they exploded and fires took hold, Moreau ordered the final evacuation. French and Germans alike fled the vessel. Explosions, from the ship's torpedo stores, destroyed the vessel, which burned for ten days.

The cruiser Jean de Vienne, in drydock, was boarded by German troops, who disarmed the demolition charges, but the open sea valves filled the ship. She sank, blocking the drydock. In another drydock, the captain of the damaged battleship Dunkerque at first refused orders to scuttle, but was persuaded by his colleague in the nearby cruiser La Galissonnière to follow suit. The holes in the hull caused by earlier British torpedo attacks were used to sink the ship, and demolition charges destroyed her vital machinery. As the Dunkerque exploded, La Galissonnière reproduced the manoeuvre executed by the Jean de Vienne.

Officers of Provence and the Commandant Teste managed to delay German officers with talk until their ships were completely sunk.

Similar scenes occurred with the destroyers and submarines. The Germans eventually seized three disarmed destroyers, four badly damaged submarines, three civilian ships, and the remains of two pre-dreadnought battleships of no value.

...but as you see went everso slightly badly LMAO

BUT note THIS and others - "was boarded by German troops, who disarmed the demolition charges" Certainly the target of Operation Lila was to sieze the Fleet INTACT...as opposed to JUST stopping it sailing away AGAIN as it had sailed away TO Toulon FROM Mers-el-Kebir in 1940. But I wouldn't hazard to guess how long the plans to SIEZE the Fleet in Operation Lila actually predated the plans for Case Anton And certainly RAEDER didn't know of them....

From 11 November 1942, negotiations took place between Germany and Vichy France. The settlement was that Toulon should remain a "stronghold" under Vichy control and defended against the Allies and "French enemies of the government of the Marechal". Großadmiral Raeder, commander of the Kriegsmarine, believed that French Navy officers would fulfill their armistice duty not to let the ships fall in the hands of any foreign nation, and managed to have the ear of Hitler. Raeder was led to believe that the German aim was to use anti-British sentiment amongst the French sailors to have them side with the Italians, while Hitler was in fact preparing a forcible seizure of the fleet. Hitler's plan was to have German sailors capture the French ships and turn them over to Italy; German officers privy to this plan were critical of it, but, as often with Hitler, their objections were ignored. Orders to implement the plan were given on 19 November.

So HITLER wanted to "re-use" the Vichy Fleet to bolster the Italian one - by 1942 it had sufered very major attrition by the RN in the Med. Whereas Raeder just wanted it to remain off the gameboard in whatever way. Between the two cases, there's not much option left for the GERMANS re-using any, apart from maybe the "small ships".

Interestingly - it WAS the Italians who raised some of the scuttled cruisers, Jean de Vienne and La Galissonnière being renamed FR11 and FR12 respectively...but by THIS point in the war, the Italians' fuel shortage for naval operations was extreme anyway.

Perhaps Tiornu or Davide Pastore are aware of contacts between Germany and Italy AHEAD of Lila on the matter of which units were ideally to be transferred? If there are any records of this, then the ships NOT slated for transfer to the Italians would be at the Germans' disposal.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Well the absence of evidence does not mean there were no such plans for using any of the French ships. However if there were no plans, from July 1940, or just some memos or brief reports in the KM offices, then it represents another possible failure in the nazi use of resources and stratigic direction.

The use of small ships seems a practical thing. Germany used the torpedo boats mentioned above here. Elsewhere the books refer to the use of Norwegian fishing boats as weather reconissance, or to Greek small war & cargo ships in the Med. So it would odds absolutely no consideration was made. Perhaps a survey & evaluation of the French submarines was made?

[phylo_roadking]

Well, the fine balancing act of keeping the French Fleet from taking off to Portsmouth or Alexandria in June 1940, while elbowing France out of the war and agreeing to the VERY punitive terms of the Armistice COULD arguably be called a good "use of resources and strategic direction." A combined French-RN fleet could have swept the Med clean of the Italians in late 1940 and blockaded Libya 100%...and the French regarded retaining the Fleet in 1940 as being left with something

Certainly after November 19th 1942 the Vichy rump regime had lost ANY bargaining power at all with the Germans because of the "loss" of the fleet.