Revisionist History?

Fiction, movies, alternate history, humor, and other non-research topics related to WWII.

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phylo_roadking
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Post by phylo_roadking » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:49 am

Hell, who needs the Germans or Japnaese for that???


Our contries would be ruled by appointed collaborators. Democracy would be abolished
Sounds like the George W. Bush - Tony Blair "Special Relationship"!

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Post by Rajin Cajun » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:59 am

Liberals are usually pacifists. :?
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Post by Opa » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:32 pm

I speak German and drive a Honda, so where is the problem for me? Anyway, once Hitler died, corrupt senile seniors a la Brezhnev would have taken over.
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Post by Michael N. Ryan » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:36 pm

Actually, depends on when Hitler croaks.

I believe I covered this subject in another thread.

Of course, it is possible that the document that started this thing might have become reality if Hitler had sent condolances and refused to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor since that would leave the US at war with Japan and Germany free to get on with its own business in Europe without having to worry much about us.

Most pacifists in America and Europe were from the Left.

They wouldn't rally for war to save Poland but they certainly jumped onboard to save the Soviet Union.

It is possible they would have treated war with Japan as their fellow lefists in europe treated the war before Germany marched into Russia.

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Post by phylo_roadking » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:54 pm

Michael thats true....does anyone know if the AMERICAn materiel sent by HCurchill to Russia by Lend-Lease, from stuff sent to Britain, was snet before or after December 8th 1941??? Am wondering what the American position would have been if those Bell Airacobras and Chevie trucks had arrived at Murmansk and Archangel before that....
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Post by Rajin Cajun » Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:48 pm

I would have to do some checking but since FDR was a leftie I'm imagining the it was probably before but I'll have to check.

Ok it was passed March 11, 1941 the bill was passed by the Democrat Majority Congress which led to some major earth shaking by the Republicans that felt it violated Neutrality Acts as well as the American wish to remain out of Foreign Wars. August 1941 seems to be the first time where FDR and Churchill discuss openly lending equipment to the USSR.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trm021.html
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Post by phylo_roadking » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:00 pm

I know both men were intent on keeping Russia in the war if possible at that point - but there there any political considerations for or against apart from that, does anyone know?

Also, can anyone route me to details of what materiel was sent when? At least for 1941?
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Post by sid guttridge » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:07 am

Hi Guys,

Given that the USA and USSR had "normal" commercial relations, is this of any particular significance? Remember Armand Hammer? (NO. NOT the toothpaste!)

The US could sell stuff directly to the USSR and had been doing so for years. Remember the sale of the Christie tank which gave birth to the BT and T34 tank series? Or the Ford motors used in Soviet tractors and light tanks? (The Romanians even designated one Soviet light armoured vehicle captured in large numbers in 1941 as "Ford Rusesc de captura".) These were all in Soviet service even before Germany attacked.

Cheers,

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Post by Michael N. Ryan » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:17 am

I remember Hammer. He marketed a lot of the loot the reds plundered from those they murdered.

And let us not forget the DC-3 which the Soviets manufacted a copy of.

There is an old Joke about the great soviet inventor Regus Patoff.

The gist though is would America's and Europe's leftist peace movement have supported their countries if Germany had not invaded the Soviet Union.

I would say no, based on what I have read in history books.

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Post by phylo_roadking » Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:59 am

The Soviets did indeed purchase single or very-limited quantities of tanks etc, through the '20s and '30s - then copied what they needed. Without the niceties of licensing agreements. What I'm referring to is the large quantity of weapons shipped in a panic from the UK by Churchill - including for example Bell Airacobra fighter aircraft that had been supplied to the RAF but they never got on with and didn't use in front-line service - though the Rusians loved them; their tricycle undercarriage proved far better for winter airstrips than normal RAF twin-spar undercarriages that required a precise three-point landing to avoid minor damage at best.

MY question is - in those months before December 8th - when the USSR was the OTHER enemy of all things good and Mom's apple pie, was the American public aware of or would they have approved of what was sent to the UK being sent on in turn to the great enemy of Capitalism...at THAT time?
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Post by Michael N. Ryan » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:42 pm

Truth is, I don't know.

I know Roosevelt was happy to see the Soviets no longer on the German side. And Lend-Lease legislation was being worked but I don't know how far these things were going by Pearl Harbor.

It would be interesting. If Hitler had not chosen to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor, the Lend-Lease program might have been cut or put in second to give priority to American efforts in the Pacific rather than the reverse which is what History has.

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Post by phylo_roadking » Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:28 am

The original Lend-Lease Bill provided for Britain and China by name - after all, they had something to trade with! I don't think it mentioned Russia...?
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Post by Rajin Cajun » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:31 pm

No actually the first bill was specifically drafted for Great Britain. China was later added in during the Japanese invasion I believe after the pillaging and rape of Nanking. Oddly enough Nationalist China was also being slightly aided by the Germans who were using observers to get ideas of combat engagements. The CCCP didn't really factor in until once the lines stabalized after Barbarossa mostly when Moscow was held I believe. All I know is talks were held with Stalin's representatives in August 1941 and onward about supplying them through Britain.
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Post by sid guttridge » Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:11 am

Hi Guys,

The original legislation of 11 March 1941 permitted the President "to sell, transfer title to, exhange, lease, lend or otherwise dispose of, to any such government whose defense the President deems vital to the defense of the United States."

This was extended to the USSR on 30 October 1941 and the first deliveries were despatched the following month. What they consisted of I do not know.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Post by sid guttridge » Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:12 am

Hi Guys,

The original legislation of 11 March 1941 permitted the President "to sell, transfer title to, exhange, lease, lend or otherwise dispose of, to any such government whose defense the President deems vital to the defense of the United States."

This was extended to the USSR on 30 October 1941 and the first deliveries were despatched the following month. What they consisted of I do not know.

Cheers,

Sid.

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