German Weapons vs. Present

[phylo_roadking]

Here's something to think about - how many WWII tanks would be "not knocked out" by a modern MBT???? thinking now of how HEAT during the war would scythe thru softskins but not explode - how many older WWII tanks would just find modern AT munitions - APDS, HESH etc - just going in one side and out the other??? LOL

Just thinking on the fly now - schurtzen; a LOT of modern AT munitions rely on the effect of the round on the INSIDE of the armoured hull when the impact on the OUTSIDE. So what happens if say a modern HESH round would impact on WWII Panzer schurtzen??? I'd guess.....nothing! Cos the scab of molten metal would come of the inside of the schurtzen NOT the tank hull! After all, isn't modern spaced armour supposed to have exactly that effect? So your conceptual Tiger might have chance to get a round off at something more vulnerable like the Bradley behind the M1A1 before the MBT changes ammo......

[Terje]

Pease correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that .50 cal Browning M2 machine gun is still the same as it used to be before and during WW2

It sure is! I occasionally dismantled or fired those babes while in the Norwegian army. The dates stamped on were usually 1940...

[Mobile Infantry]

Some of the tanks were later used or at least tested in other armies:
I visited the tank museum at Axvall, Sweden last year and found a King Tiger which was bought after the war in France and tested in Sweden:

http://www.pansarmuseet.se/
click "samlingen" then scroll down to "Kungstigern Tyskland"

Sverige köpte in en Tiger II och en Panther från Frankrike 1947 ..."

[ww2germancavalry.info]

It sure is! I occasionally dismantled or fired those babes while in the Norwegian army. The dates stamped on were usually 1940...

Ha Ha, I was in the US Army from 89-92 and we had the good, new M-2's, 1950's vintage, lol.

[Leonard]

The Browning M2 is essentially the same since not only ww2 but ww1.

[ww2germancavalry.info]

Just like the M1911 Colt .45, excellent , field tested designs. A perfect example of the "If it anit broke, dont fix it" philosophy.

[big_buddha]

During the First Gulf War, an Abrams came over the crest of a dune and found itself surprised by 5 to 7 T55s, the T55s shot at the Abrams, which calmly took out each T55 in turn, the Abrams crew only knew how many times they had been hit when they got out and counted the impacts on the armour, they had sustained over a dozen hits, none had come close to penetration. The T55s were all burning piles of scrap.

No WWII era tank would stand a chance against modern armour. The only exception is the Centurion which is still in service in a few armies, albeit with modern equipment and 105mm L7 gun. Without the modern electronics and gun, the Centurion would be an antique, its strength lay in its ability to be upgraded.

[phylo_roadking]

Then again - whats this strange new weapon in Iraq that seems to be able to do for an Abrams ok! The one with the "golden beam"??? Two years now and we hear of the two knocked-out M1A1s bt no sign yet of the weapon that did it......

[big_buddha]

Here's the story on the mystery weapon:

What killed a U.S. tank? Mystery munition knocked out Abrams
October 27, 2003

'Something' felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq but what?
Mystery behind Aug. 28 incident puzzles Army officials

By John Roos
Special to the Times


Shortly before dawn on Aug. 28, an M1A1 Abrams tank on routine patrol in Baghdad was hit by something

[big_buddha]

I found that pic of the destroyed Jagd Tiger:

Conflict surrounds the credit for the destruction of this massive King Tiger or Jadgtiger. Two sources are credited with the 'kill': 1- A well placed bazooka shot; 2- A long-range precision round from a 90mm gun on a 776th 'Slugger' tank destroyer.

http://www.efour4ever.com/panzers.htm

[phylo_roadking]

BB, I read an abbreviated version of that article, and the accompanying editorial went on to muse along the same lines, a shaped-charge warhead upgrade for the RPG, possibly "literally" golden, as there were some hints that the Russians were testing GOLD instead of the initial copper of the long-service RPG! Something to do with the different melting point, so it would have different entry characteristics.

[big_buddha]

Having looked at the pics of the Abrams, there is a black scorch ring around the entry point, that, to me, makes it obvious it was a shaped charge warhead, almost certainly fired from an RPG, could be a Chinese, Russian, or even Czech warhead, possibly of unknown type, could possibly have been a two-stage charge, or a hybrid type with both shaped charge and sub calibre penetrator, the only thing that confuses me is the passage of a solid object throgu the interior of the tank, like you say, if a different metal than copper was used, this could be the explanation. Whatever caused the damage, it was definitely a convential weapon and not some advanced secret laser/plasma/phaser weapon as some of the more paranoid have suggested.

All this reminds me of the first Tiger knocked out by the British in the Desert (Tunisia I think). Here was this 56-ton armoured beast and it was knocked out by a 6 pounder at 600 yards, my memory fails me a little, but I think the glacis was penetrated. I bet the Germans were sure they were safe at that distance from all weapons short of a 3.7 AA gun and the Brits didn't use them against tanks. I might be wrong, but I think the 6 pounder was using the improved AT round the British introduced in 1942, hence its ability to destroy the Tiger at medium range.

I'm sure thats all that we're looking at with the Abrams, an improved warhead fired from an old weapon.

[phylo_roadking]

Whereas going by all the tales, its the AMERICANS who have the particle/beam weapons there for testing LOL

That Tiger I think is one mnetioned else where, it was shipped home for evaluation, and is supposed to be in outside storage at Bovington as a hulk. Certainly theres one there rusting away in the rain with the glacis pierced. Coincidence...?

[big_buddha]

The Tiger has been restored and is running now, its the only running one in the world, there is a site dedicated to the restoration:

http://www.tiger-tank.com/

I think it must be the same one that was sitting outside rusting. The restored one was captured in Tunisia, so its probably the one knocked out by the 6 pounder.

Watched Saving Private Ryan last night, and that 'Tiger' looks nothing like one, of course, its a T34, but its just so small and the front of the turret is just too narrow, it looks so wrong, considering they had a real Marder III, surely Spielberg could have spent some of his huge piles of cash on restoring a real Tiger to running order.

The 6 pounder was a pretty damn good weapon, especially with the later APC rounds, the Brits made some excellent AT guns, shame the tanks weren't as good. The 17 pounder in my book, is a better tank weapon than both the long 75 (PzIV, Panther etc.) and the L56 88mm, and the Comet and Centurion were capable of taking on the Panthers and Tigers on equal terms, if they had come along a year or two earlier, a lot of British tankers would still be alive.

[5RANGLIAN]

I'm not a tankee, but wouldn't there by the same problem with APFSDS/HEAT against WWII armour that modern-day gunners have, i.e. that a sabot round would go straight through a WWII tank like they do to BMP's, so you'd have to use HEAT, which may be defeated by schurzen or maybe even the spaced armour on a PzIIIM?