The Ardennes.....

[phylo_roadking]

....thought that would get your attention LOL

A thrwo-away line on the Telly sent me hunting in Airey Neave's "Saturday afternoon in M.I.9" today; in Autumn 1944, there were up to hundred escaping British and American Airmen in Belgium, being hidden by the various evasion lines....as DDay has totally disrupted their escape lines south to Spain, and the Swiss frontier was too well policed from Both sides....

This apparently included some 50 living rough in camps in the Ardennes a la Maquis....

What happened to them??? Did they link up with the Allies before the German offensive, or did they find the German Army coming though the trees at them? Does anyone know?

[big_buddha]

I'm pretty sure they were gone before the Ardennes offensive, I've read a lot on that battle and never heard mention of them, thats why I think they would have left by then. After Falaise, there was nothing to stop them going wherever they wanted in France as all the Germans were running for the Rhine. In Sepp Dietrich's Biography by Charles Messenger he describes the flight to the Rhino with the constant pounding by the air forces and how they lost more materiel crossing the Rhine than at Falaise.

[Claudy WINANT]

Hello big_buddha,

There were several camps situated in the woods of the Belgian Ardennes, not far from the German border. These camps were under control of the Belgian Underground. The soldiers who were brought and hide there, were most airmen, who had to bail out somewhere on Belgian territory, coming back from a bombing on Germany or shot down by a German night fighter. the pilots were brought there by the Resistance, sometimes they made the travel by bike or by footing. In these camps they were waiting on the moving up American Infantry or also they could be picked up in an escape line - Comète - to Switzerland or Spain. These camps were situated no far from the German border! The Germans didn't have guts to enter these woods because they were afraid of the Maquis (Underground people) who were at their ease in the woods and trusted on their guerilla war experience. The Germans called them "Bandits" or "Partizanen".

I made up a list of these camps. I consulted different sources which I think are reliable, it's vertheless quite possible that it is incomplete or that it contains some mistakes. I have assembled this list, with the maximum of care and all the informations that I could gather. I hope this is a starting point, and that others can either correct or complete it. I will be most happy to receive any comment so that I could be able to fill in the gaps or change the errors. many thanks to anyone who will help me in this matter.

The different camps in the Ardennes were : Beffe; Bellevaux also called La Cornette; Acremont also called Luchy-Acremont; Porcheresse; Villance; and Bohan also called Robinson.

These list is too long to include it here but if someone would have it I would be glad to sent it. Personally I know some pilots who spent several days in this camps and who could join their units after be liberated by the US Forces. As I told before, others could join Neutral countries such as Switzerland or Spain before they fly back to England.

I hope I could give you a little more information about this camps.

Claudy.

[Claudy WINANT]

Hi again,

I forgot to mension some specifications. These camps were put at a distance of ± 20 kilometer ( 12,5 miles) from each other.
The camps were provided for 20 men, but ... after a while you got more and more men! The camps were build in the direction of the French border, so that the pilots, after changing several times from camp to camp, could reach France and there could enter in the Comète Line or join the American front lines. The most activities in the camps were perseived in 1944, because that was the period for the Air Force that very much bombing raids were made on Germany.

Each camp had to provide specific conditions: - must be situated in a wood, - easy to reach, - in the neigborhood of a dropping zone (munitions), - have a source of drinkwater in the surrounding area.
The pilots received food, nurcing and also new clothers.
Each American soldier had to pass by an interogation committee, to see if there were no spy's under the airmen. Some airmen who leaved the camps in 1943 reached England and took the combat again.
Even, when the Battle of the Bulge (December 16, 1944) was at its summum, the camps were still functioning!
Hopely this explanation brought you some more help.

[Prosper Vandenbroucke]

Hello Claudy,
Everything you wrote is very right and thrue.
I am not able to write in english like you but I want just say that the organisation of these camps where called by the name Opération Marathon.
It was necessary to transfer the allied aircrew to the allied lines, but the Comet Line wasn't still working anymore. Several members of the direction of this escape line were arrested by the germans.
That's why those camps were created.
I Guess you have put your information into the book of David J. Chaussée '' 40-45 Parachutage de nuit ''
Kindly regards
Prosper

[Claudy WINANT]

Hello Prosper,

I'm glad somebody made a remark on my answer to "big_buddha".
I already explained in the right corner of these page under the name:"Post Subject", you can read that I wrote : Allied Maraton Camps.

As you told, you can find these list in a book of David J.Chausée or in my book. David and I had the same man who gave us the source of the Maraton Camp (Mr. René Londoz) . I'm a writer too but I write in Dutch language and wrote two books about the Underground in Belgium under the titel " Weerstand-Haspengouw" part 1 & 2.(2002).

What a surprise that two people, who are living in the same country, speaking different languages (Dutch and French) are corresponding in English ! Amaising and that is once again the confirmation that people, of which color they are, and which language they speak, always can correspond with each other.

Amitiés Prosper, Best Regards.

[Prosper Vandenbroucke]

Hi Claudy,
Sorry, but I din't see that you wrote the name of those camps in the subject
And your right when you say that I'm from the french side of Belgium but I am speaking fluently the dutch language too
In fact I came from Brussels
Vriendelijke groeten, Best regards Claudy
Prosper

[big_buddha]

Thankyou Claudy and Prosper for informing me of something I knew nothing about! One correction to my earlier post, I talk about crossing the Rhine, I should have written Seine, Sepp Dietrich claimed the Germans lost more equipment crossing the Seine than at Falaise. I fell into a dangerous trap, I assumed that because the entire German armed forces in the West were running for the German border and the Westwall, that any hiding prisoners would have been able to freely move to the allied lines. It is always dangerous to assume things, in English we have a saying, he who assumes makes an ass of u and me, its a play on words.

Where I live in northern England, we had several POW camps and refugee camps for Poles, Czechs etc. As a result, there are Polish and Italian families living in this area to this day. There are many tales of German prisoners escaping, even in 1944 when they would have no chance of winning the war. I'm pretty certain no Germans remained here (in my area) after the war by choice, wouldn't have been too welcome I guess, especially with all the Poles who made their homes here. We used to have a Polish cobbler's shop and two Polish jewellers's shops too in my little town.

[Claudy WINANT]

Hi Big-Buddha

It could be that Dietich said some, but the Germans had a very big luck to that they could escap from Falaise (otherwise W.W.II. finished there !!!).
After the checkmate of the Germans in Mortain, the Americans saw that the liberation of Bretagne gets quicker then foresee. Monty and Eisenhower decided to sent Patton with the Third Army to the East, so that the German forces would be sourround in Falaise. General von Kluge is trying to get the autorisation from the Führer to withdraw over the Seine. The Gap of Falaise is almost closed. After he got a positive answer of Hitler, von Kluge withdrowed from August,16th. to August,20th. and leaved much material behind him. If at that moment Montgomery with the help of the Polish soldiers, (who were fighting at the Mont-Ormel between Trun and Chambois) could take the Germans, nobody should escape from captivity, but Montgomery hesitated and so loosed very precious time and also the only good moment to catch the weak German Armee. They had no more material, the 10 Panzerdivisionen who fought in Normandy didn't had more then 100 tanks. On August, 23rd. a new phase of withdrawing was taking on. 10.000 Germans died, 50.000 prisoners. It was not a new Stalingrad but it was a capitulation of an whole German Armee in open field. Many generals were captured such as Elfelt, Hausser- chief of the 7.Armee, Meindl etc ...
Then, as you said very well, the Germans run to their border to redeploy and defend their ouw country.

About the prisoner camps in England, I have to tell you I got a lot of documentation for my next book. I am relating in a chapter, the story of the German prisoners of war camp in England. Camp nb.168 in Glen Mill - Oldham - Lancastershire. where the prisoners were billeted in a cotton factory. The camp was under command of Colonel Denison. Very interesting story. A whole organsation was builed up because in such a camp you had all kinds of soldiers: Seamen, Fallschirjägers, fanatic nazi's and also Russian soldiers who fught on the German side.
It's too long to explain all this organisation Big-Buddha, but I think if you look in this forum, there must be orther topics over the camps.

[phylo_roadking]

Claudy, are you aware of the story of the the only escaping German Prisoner who was ever shoot dead by the Home Guard in England???

[maschinengewehr42]

About the prisoner camps in England, I have to tell you I got a lot of documentation for my next book. I am relating in a chapter, the story of the German prisoners of war camp in England. Camp nb.168 in Glen Mill - Oldham - Lancastershire. where the prisoners were billeted in a cotton factory. The camp was under command of Colonel Denison. Very interesting story. A whole organsation was builed up because in such a camp you had all kinds of soldiers: Seamen, Fallschirjägers, fanatic nazi's and also Russian soldiers who fught on the German side.

You've probably seen this site already then:

http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/pow/glenmill.html

Can anyone confirm or deny this surprising statement made on that site:

"There was one case however of two German POWs escaping from Glen Mill prison camp and making it back to Hamburg. From there they sent a rude letter to the camp commandant stating that they would not be coming back to enjoy any more of his kind hospitality!!"

To the best of my knowledge, the only German POW to EVER escape from captivity in an Allied countryin WW2 was Franz von Werra, and that was from Canada to the United States, in January 1941 when the US was still a neutral country! Von Werra had made previous attempts from Britain which nearly succeeded though, once being captured in a Hurricane cockpit after being unable to start the unfamiliar plane! Despite this near success, I'm sure there were never any real German "home runs" from Britain.

[big_buddha]

I've never heard of any successful German escapes, they certainly did try to escape and did get out of the camps from time to time, but with an extremely hostile population and no underground to help them, it would be very hard to escape from England back to Germany. I know that where I live, they used Poles to patrol near the camps, if you were a German, you wouldn't want to be hunted down by a load of Poles, they would probably have shot any German escapees on sight, the hatred was extreme. To be able to successfully escape from England without any help, you would need to speak perfect English with no accent, any suspect accents were immediately turned in, especially in 1940 and 41, lots of cases of innocent Poles, Czechs etc. being handed over to the authorities as suspected spies. Polish troops were often thought to be Germans in British Uniforms by civilians and The Home Guard, I have heard of Home Guard units holding Poles prisoner in 1940, they started adding British liason personnel to all Polish units training in Britain to avoid such problems.

[phylo_roadking]

BB, have you ever been to Grizedale Forest in the Lake District? This is a cultivated forest in the southern lakes, and Grizedale Hall (now demolished) was used by the WD during the war as a KM POW camp. There's now a big park centre built in the old stables etc, including a heritage centre, where the following story is presented in detail. Only got to read it once, so I'm quoting from memory now, without names or dates. If anyone lives closer a visit is well worth it.....

Among the prisoners were the officers of a U-Boat that had been forced to the surface and captred, and taken under tow back to Barrow-in -Furness for evaluation, and ther crew imprisoned. A few months later, the crew learned somehow the sub was less than 20 miles away, and the first officer, who should have scuttled her but failed to - was "tasked"...by drumhead courtmartial - to break out of the camp, get to Barrow, and somehow destroy the U-Boat. He managed to get out, couldn't get into the yard at Barrow, and when in the forest heading BACK to the camp at night he ran from a challenge and was shot by the Home Guard.

All dates, names, -number etc. are available there on a big billboard display in the heritage centre.

[big_buddha]

I live in Millom, just a few miles from Barrow, so I do know that story well. I actually think it was one of my relatives who shot him, at least thats the claim, though there was more than one old fella claiming the honour in the pubs round these parts. I remember the old Hall in ruins before it was demolished, it was one of many POW camps in this area, there was one at Silecroft about 3 miles from my house housing Italian prisoners of war. The camp was guarded by the Poles, they took the Poles off guard duty over Germans due to the constant incidents of German POWs being savagely beaten up.

The shipyard at Barrow is near impossible to properly guard, if that Kraut had known the town well, he would have found it easy to get into the yard, a quick swim across Walney Channel, which is no more than 150 metres at the wide part, and he could have easily got into Cavendish Dock where the submarines were built, if the U-boat was in one of the docks, he could have just jumped off the road bridge that passes over the docks. When the Upholder class hunter-killer subs were in for overhaul prior to transfer to the Canadian navy in the last few years, they were berthed very close to the bridge. If the U-boat had been in the outer large dock basin, it would have been harder to get to, this area being more isolated and not surrounded by the town like the main docks. Still, if he'd known the town, he'd have found a way in, if he was a decent swimmer, getting in would be easy, although judging by the number of old pillboxes around the docks, there would have been lots of sentries to avoid. Nowadays, the outer dock is home to the terminal were BNFL docks its nuclear flask carriers that bring nuclear waste from Japan to be reprocessed at Sellafield and there are CCTV cameras and tall fences everywhere.