Stalin's War of Extermination by Joachim Hoffman LIES?

J.P. Slovjanski · Post by **J.P. Slovjanski** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:45 am

A while back I read this book during a time when my politics were predisposed to believe his claims. Lately I see plenty of evidence to suggest that this might be more revisionist nonsense. For example, he relies heavily on the discreditted Viktor Suvorov.

What I am interested in is any critical analysis of Hoffmann's salient claims showing clear distortion. Hoffmann claims to have obtained evidence from the Soviet archives, yet he made the idiotic claim that the Soviet Union only suffered around 5 million casulties(where the hell did he get that?!)

Any suggestion?

pzrmeyer2 · Post by **pzrmeyer2** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:27 am

what is the thesis of the book?

Jan-Hendrik · Post by **Jan-Hendrik** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:58 am

That Stalin acted as brutal and amoralic as Hitler did . Against his own population as against those in the occupied countries .

Hoffmann was during his active career at the MGFA the expert for the UDSSR and the Red Army of this institution .

As far as I remember ( read it a few years ago ) every thesis was very well documentated in this book .

Jan-Hendrik

pzrmeyer2 · Post by **pzrmeyer2** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:28 am

Thanks J-H,

That Stalin acted as brutal and amoralic as Hitler did . Against his own population as against those in the occupied countries .

I'd say that sums up Stalin in a nutshell, although I 'd say more so.

he made the idiotic claim that the Soviet Union only suffered around 5 million casulties

from what? the Germans? Stalin himself?

J.P. Slovjanski · Post by **J.P. Slovjanski** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:34 am

No, Hoffmann is clearly not an expert. He made claims that Stalin operated gas chambers in the book, and for his main thesis he made claims that were not backed up(for example, he talks about Soviet deployment that contradicts known records and doesn't provide even a single map), and also relies on the discreditted Viktor Suvorov.

In addition to this, he claims that the total casulties for the USSR in WWII was around 5 million.

Second, Stalin was not "worse than Hitler". Evidence discovered by J Arch Getty, which actually DID rely on Soviet archival material- showed that the figures for the Great Purges and the populations of political prisoners are greatly exagerrated many times over.

I already know from experience and contrary evidence that Hoffmann's claims are based on innuendo and discreditted propagandists(including Nazi propaganda). What I am looking for are some specific cases where he deliberately deceives his audience.

pzrmeyer2 · Post by **pzrmeyer2** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:38 am

Second, Stalin was not "worse than Hitler". Evidence discovered by J Arch Getty, which actually DID rely on Soviet archival material- showed that the figures for the Great Purges and the populations of political prisoners are greatly exagerrated many times over.

So you believe "archives" from a government that routinely doctored photos and documents to "erase" people?

I think the following quote sums it up nicely:

It is in the nature of Stalinism for its adherents to make a certain kind of lying – and not only to others but first of all to themselves – a fundamental part of their lives. It is always a mistake to assume that Stalinists do not know the truth about the political reality they espouse. If they don’t know the truth (or all of it) one day, they know it the next, and it makes absolutely no difference to them politically. For their loyalty is to something other than the truth. And no historical enormity is so great, no personal humiliation or betrayal so extreme, no crime so heinous that it cannot be assimilated into the ‘ideals’ that govern the Stalinist mind, which is impervious alike to documentary evidence and moral discrimination.– Hilton Kramer

J.P. Slovjanski · Post by **J.P. Slovjanski** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:48 am

pzrmeyer2 wrote:
So you believe "archives" from a government that routinely doctored photos and documents to "erase" people?

That's not the way it works. Allegations of genocide are made against Stalin. Burden of proof rests on the accusers. Demographic records suggest otherwise. Archives support the demographic records. The logical fallacy here is that because the Soviet government had lied about some things, they must be lying in regards to what their own records contain. Why they would want to lie in their own secret records is an interesting question.

pzrmeyer2 wrote: I think the following quote sums it up nicely:

It is in the nature of Stalinism for its adherents to make a certain kind of lying – and not only to others but first of all to themselves – a fundamental part of their lives. It is always a mistake to assume that Stalinists do not know the truth about the political reality they espouse. If they don’t know the truth (or all of it) one day, they know it the next, and it makes absolutely no difference to them politically. For their loyalty is to something other than the truth. And no historical enormity is so great, no personal humiliation or betrayal so extreme, no crime so heinous that it cannot be assimilated into the ‘ideals’ that govern the Stalinist mind, which is impervious alike to documentary evidence and moral discrimination.– Hilton Kramer

That is an interesting opinion but doesn't contain any evidence whatsoever.

pzrmeyer2 · Post by **pzrmeyer2** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:57 am

Demographic records suggest otherwise. Archives support the demographic records.

really? I think otherwise and am trying to locate the info to support this.

The logical fallacy here is that because the Soviet government had lied about some things, they must be lying in regards to what their own records contain. Why they would want to lie in their own secret records is an interesting question

Why would they want to record it? After the exposure of the crimes of nazism and the worldwide condemnation, why would they want exposure? they had 50+ years to doctor whatever they wanted.

It amazes me that people continue to defend the mass-murderer who liquidated his closest confidants, loyal party members, relatives, as well as subjected his own people to barbarity.
I am not defending Hitler here, but at least Hitler had a method to his madness in directing the liquidation against "enemies'. Stalin's was directed a this friends and his own people.

cpa95 · Post by **cpa95** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:59 am

Hi,

here is an english translation of Bonwetsch, headed "Die Forschungskontroverse über die Kriegsvorbereitungen der Roten Armee 1941", published on pages 170 - 188 of the collection "Präventivkrieg? - Der deutsche Angriff auf die Sowjetunion", edited by Bianka Pietrow-Ennker, 2000.

http://p102.ezboard.com/frodohforumfrm1 ... =158.topic

Greetings
Thomas

J.P. Slovjanski · Post by **J.P. Slovjanski** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:06 am

pzrmeyer2 wrote:
Demographic records suggest otherwise. Archives support the demographic records.
really? I think otherwise and am trying to locate the info to support this.

Good luck.

pzrmeyer2 wrote: Why would they want to record it?

It's a good idea to keep track of how many people are living in your nation, among other things.

pzrmeyer2 wrote: After the exposure of the crimes of nazism and the worldwide condemnation, why would they want exposure?

How were Nazi crimes exposed? When, after a war of aggression, the Third Reich was invaded and defeated.

pzrmeyer2 wrote: they had 50+ years to doctor whatever they wanted.

Conspiracy theory.

pzrmeyer2 wrote: It amazes me that people continue to defend the mass-murderer who liquidated his closest confidants, loyal party members, relatives, as well as subjected his own people to barbarity.

Again, there needs to be proof that he did this. That Stalin purged the party is beyond doubt. That innocents got caught up in this is also beyond doubt. That there were very real reasons for this purge, and that many of these "victims" were in fact traitors and conspirators is also beyond question.

pzrmeyer2 wrote: I am not defending Hitler here, but at least Hitler had a method to his madness in directing the liquidation against "enemies'. Stalin's was directed a this friends and his own people.

These were not "friends", and Hitler also engaged in MANY actions which directly harmed his own people. Again, this is an example of a "loaded question" fallacy- e.g. Are you still beating your wife? First the proof must be presented that Stalin was committing all this barbarism(there is evidence that Stalin engaged in a number of actions to curtail excesses of collectivisation and purging on numerous occasions).

So far that has not been done.

Jan-Hendrik · Post by **Jan-Hendrik** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:13 am

OK , another denier of huge crimes done during the time of stalinism . Every discussion here will end up in stupid blabla . Bye , bye .

Jan-Hendrik

..who could not believe that anyone still defends the butchers Hitler or Stalin in public

pzrmeyer2 · Post by **pzrmeyer2** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:16 am

OK , another denier of huge crimes done during the time of stalinism . Every discussion here will end up in stupid blabla . Bye , bye

Agreed...see ya.

J.P. Slovjanski · Post by **J.P. Slovjanski** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:18 am

Jan-Hendrik wrote:OK , another denier of huge crimes done during the time of stalinism . Every discussion here will end up in stupid blabla . Bye , bye .

Jan-Hendrik

..who could not believe that anyone still defends the butchers Hitler or Stalin in public

Proof of Hitler's crimes are documented and in accordance with demographic statistics. Proof of Stalin's crimes has not been presented. If you want to argue the semantics of the purge, by all means. However, the burden of proof still remains on those that want to say that Stalin was equal to or worse than Hitler.

J.P. Slovjanski · Post by **J.P. Slovjanski** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:20 am

Who's gonna be the first to bring up Robert Conquest? Who's gonna set fire to their credibility first? Any takers?

J.P. Slovjanski · Post by **J.P. Slovjanski** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:24 am

So does anyone have any comment on Hoffmann's deliberate distortions? I'm not accusing him right now of making any, but clearly his facts have some serious problems.

That was, BTW, the topic of this thread.