Tricky: Who raped most (total rapes) Germans/Soviets?

[oleg]

The rape victims in Berlin, based on red cross estimates were over 100,000, with about 10,000 woman dying as a result. I think Oleg raises good points! The German Army was in Russia for much longer. If his number of 10 million german-committed rapes is accurate then that at least rivals or exceeds the Red army. I saw on a PBS show, that rape was at least tacitly condoned by the Germans in order to subjugate communities through terror. Also, I bet the anti-partisan fighting was quite conducive to raping. I would guess Germans raped more, just over a longer period of time, and not as intensely. I think this image of the Germans being anti-rapists, is not founded. The Red Army never gave orders to rape, in fact they were supposed to behave civily towards what was expected to be their future subjects.

Who are Sibirjaks? Central Asians?

The rape victims in Berlin, based on red cross estimates were over 100,000, with about 10,000 woman dying as a result.

I don't think it was. I am trying to track down exactly how this whole thing was arrived - and I was not able so far.

[oleg]

All important question remains to be answered before the mental worlds of the German soldiers and French and Belgian civilians in 1914 can be examfined. Did other armies during the early part of the war commit comparable violence against civilians, or was German behaviour in the west unique? There are four potential comparisons: first, the Russian invasion of East Prussia in August-early September 1914; second, the subsequent German invasion of the north-western fringe of the Russian Empire (Poland and Lithuania); third, the Russian invasion of Galicia and the Bukovina, in Austria-Hungary, in autumn 1914, followed by the Russian retreat in spring and summer 1915; and finally, the failed Austro-Hungarian invasions of Serbia in August-September and November 1914. Next. to the German invasion of Belgium and France, these invasions produced the main occasions for violence between soldiers and enemy civilians."
Lurid atrocity tales emerged in all four theatres of war which told not only of widespread pillage, physical destruction, and rape by invading soldiers butt of mutilation and Murder by civilians as well. The army and public in Germany were stunned by the rapid Russian mobilization and invasion of East Prussia. "The Cossacks are coming' was the catchword of widespread panic, motivating the German Social Democrats to vote for war credits and impelling a large part of the East Prussian population to flee. By mid-August 1914, stories circulated in the German army and then in Germany at large, of women being raped, mutilated, or murdered by Russian troops."" In Galicia and the Bukovina, from autumn 1914 to summer 1915, stories abounded of rape and brutality by Russian troops, especially Cossacks, and of pogroms against the Jewish population. In Serbia and Bosnia, Serb civilians were held to be mutilating captured Austro-Hungarian soldiers, and Austro-Hungarians to be raping Serb women and decimating whole villages. Intense images of enemy atrociousness accompanied the invasions in eastern Europe as in the west.
Evidence of real civilian resistance and military brutality, however, varied considerably. The German government, in a report published in March 1915, charged the Russians with practising `indisputably barbarous' methods of warfare in Last Prussia, including the spoliation of towns and villages, the murder of `thousands' (including young men of military service age), mass deportation, rape, and mutilation."' But such accusations must be treated with caution. Although in some cases corroborated details were given, in many the evidence was weak; for example, no Russian army units were named. This makes the report's estimate that only 101 civilians were killed during the invasion of East Prussia, in a campaign of the same duration as that of Belgium and the Marne, all the more remarkable. There were two `major incidents', as defined above, at Santoppen, where 19 civilians were executed on 28 August, and at Christiankehmen on 1 1 September, with 14 civilian fatalities."
A more nuanced account emerges from an unpublished collection of reports and diary extracts made with the intention of writing a history of East Prussia during the war. This reveals a varied pattern of Russian army conduct, and also helps explain the motivation for violence. Certainly the Russian troops often had to requisition supplies and this, as elsewhere, led to plunder and destruction, and sometimes casual violence against civilians. "The Russians claimed that they had been fired upon in a number of localities, such as Jusmen (Pillkallen district) on 9 August, where Russian cavalry shot six inhabitants, or Neidenberg on 22 August.11" According to a report to the Ministry of the Interior by the provincial governor of Gumbinnen, where a major battle was fought, there had been numerous cases in which the enemy has burned down farmhouses used by German patrols as shelter and from which they had fired. In most cases the Russians then accused German civilians of unauthorized use of weapons in order to justify their incendiarism. 'The arson committed in the villages GroB and Klein Daguthelen and BartschkUhnen on 17 August had its origins in this cause.'"

The Russians thus appear to have shared the German idea of the illegitirnacy of civilian participation in combat. In fact, the evidence for such resistance on any serious scale is even weaker for East Prussia than for Belgium and northern France. But the Russians seldom intentionally killed civilians in response. Even where there was a civilian militia which they considered illegal, reprisals against civilians did not ensue. Although much remains to be established about the East Prussian campaign, systematic violence against German civilians was not a major constituent of Russian behaviour, even though the same potential for it existed as in the German army's invasion of France and Belgium.
By and large the Russian troops in East Prussia respected international law and the laws of war, as a commission of the Reich Office for Internal Affairs concluded after the recovery of East Prussia. It reported that `Russian atrocities have [...] turned out to have been grossly exaggerated.' The commission
has found that the descriptions of Russian cruelties and the reported devastation of the country are based on falsehood. It is reported that the Russian troops have behaved correctly everywhere towards the inhabitants. If individual towns and villages were burned down, this occurred almost without exception during artillery battles, in some cases also because German patrols fired from houses and the Russians assumed that the civilian inhabitants were involved in the shooting.


This view was shared by no less a person than Erich Ludendorff, who after playing a leading role in the assault on Liege city, was given command with Hindenburg of the East Prussian campaign and masterminded the victory of Tannenberg (26 to 31 August). Ludendorff wrote in 1919 that, lie had been appalled by the Belgian francs-tireurs and the way in which `the Belgian government had systematically organized civilian warfare', whereas by contrast he found that `many of the Russian troops behaved in exemplary manner in East Prussia.' He attributed the `harshness and terror' that undoubtedly did take place to Cossack indiscipline rather than to military policy`" For all the destruction caused by the invasion, the "harrowing' of East Prussia by the Russians appears to be a myth."

[oleg]

So no one would accuse me of denying Soviet rapes – I translated it a while ago –and yes I am acutely aware that the text needs severe proofreading.

From the Report by the Military prosecutor of the 1st Byelorussian Front to the Military Council of the 1st Byelorussian Front –in regards to execution of the directive of the Stavka of the High Command and Military Council, dealing with attitude change towards German Population…
May 2nd 1945.

Considerable changes are noted in the attitude of the Red Army personnel, towards German civilians . The number of illegal and baseless shootings of Germans, lootings and rapes has dropped down considerably, nonetheless, despite the directive, these things still occur.

If the executions and burglaries, presently, has practically ceased, then rapes and looting still present a problem.
Here are some rather fresh examples:

Deputy to the commander of the 1st battery of 334th Guards Self-propelled Heavy Artillery Regiment, Senior lieutenant Enchivatov was arrested on the April 25 ,in the town of Falkenzee. Enchivatov while being drunk, was going from house to house, and raping women.
The investigation is now complete and his case is being presented before military tribunal.

In the town of Fronau, Servicemen of independent 157th border guards Regiment, Ivanov and Manankov , broke into German house, where Manankov raped ill German woman by the name of Lizelet Lure. Before that - this woman was raped, on the April 22nd, by the group of unknown Soviet Servicemen. After this has happened, she poisoned her, one and half year old, son; Lure’s mother also poisoned herself; Lizelet Lure tried to poisoned herself too but she was revived. This is when, (while recovering form the effects of attempted poisoning) she was raped by Manankov. Meanwhile, Ivanov raped another German woman by the name of Kirhenvitz.
Ivanov and Manankov are arrested; case is closed, and sent before military tribunal.

CO of mortar company of 216 Rifle Regiment of the 76 Rifle Division, senior lieutenant Buyanov, proclaimed himself patrol commander, and while being drunk, was stopping all German he met, and stripping them of valuables. His case is currently being presented before military tribunal.

Chief of staff of 278 rifle regiment of the 175 rifle divisions, lieutenant-colonel Losev, send his subordinated to the house where German civilians were hiding, with the order to get him a German woman. Lieutenant found one and Losiev raped her.
By the order of Military council of the army Losev has been removed form his position and has been demoted.

On April 22nd at the place called Shenerlinde, master-sergeant of 695 artillery regiment of 185 rifle divisions Dorohin, used his weapon to threaten parents of the 15 year old girl, whom he raped right before their very eyes.
Dorohin is arrested his cased is presented before military tribunal.

On April 25th 2nd staff officer of operational department of the staff of 79th Rifle Corps, lieutenant Kursakov, tried to raped German woman in front of her husband and children. Kursakov is being investigated, with criminal charges pending.

There is a whole lot of similar cases.
I would like to underline the following points:

1. COs and Armies Militry Council are taking serious measures to stop these outrages, but still, certain commanders are willing to let is slide by, as soon as they mange to achieve some insignificant progress , forgetting that whatever is reported only partially represents that actual state of affairs.
Since quite a few units are passing through the same place, certain commanders are trying to shift the blame to other units. This rather wide spread and alarming tendency.

2. Quite a few rapes and lootings are committed by the repartees – especially Italians and Dutch, and occasionally even Germans- all these however very often is blamed on our soldiers.

3. Occasionally we are dealing with provocations, when locals report a crime which never took place. I personally investigated two such occasions
What is more interesting, sometimes our own personnel reports crimes without checking it first., which when check turns out to be a fiction. …

Signed


Militray Prosecutor of the 1st Byelorussian Front, Major-General of Jurisprudence L.Yachenin.

[Spandau]

Avete,

I am not going to involve myself in the argument of who was the most brutal, the Soviets or the Germans. I don't put a lot of stock in death tolls, as my research has revealed MANY contradicting claims. The battle of statistics can rage for eternity, and I find that 64% of all statistics are made up on the spot!

But I will say this. While the Russians had no official policy (That I know of) advocating the rape of German women, the Soviet propaganda sure seemed to encourage it to the point that many Red Army soldiers felt that it was okay.
"All of us knew very well that if the girls were German they could be raped and then shot." -Alexander Solzhenitsyn
(Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr. The Gulag Archipelago, p.21)

There were signs saying, "You are now on German soil, the hour of revenge has struck." And Ilya Ehrenburg certainly fed the fire of revenge. Here are a few of her quotes.

Referring to German women, Ehrenburg gloated to the advancing Red Army troops, "that blonde hag is in for a bad time."

In a leaflet addressed to Soviet troops, Ehrenburg wrote: "...the Germans are not human beings...nothing gives us so much joy as German corpses." (Anatol Goldberg, Ilya Ehrenburg,)

A leaflet composed by Ehrenburg and signed by Stalin was dropped on Red Army troops approaching Danzig. It read: 'Soldiers of the Red Army! Kill the Germans! Kill all Germans! Kill! Kill! Kill!'
(Christopher Duffy, Red Storm on the Reich).


Yes, the German propaganda regarding the "Untermensch" is comporable, but it wasn't quite so blatant as the above, if those sources are accurate. It seems from my reading that the German atrocities in Russia were more the result of Evil orders and organized groups as opposed to the widespread horrer on the soldiers own initiative. Of course there wer instances, but not quite on the scale of what I have read about in Germany. But, I haven't read everything, so please give me sources. I am willing to change my view if enough evidence is presented.

Valete,

-Spandau

[oleg]

But I will say this. While the Russians had no official policy (That I know of) advocating the rape of German women, the Soviet propaganda sure seemed to encourage it to the point that many Red Army soldiers felt that it was okay.
"All of us knew very well that if the girls were German they could be raped and then shot." -Alexander Solzhenitsyn
(Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr. The Gulag Archipelago, p.21)

Solzhenitsyn is good fiction writer… seems though that neither Soviet High command nor military prosecutors did not support his interesting opinion of his.

Referring to German women, Ehrenburg gloated to the advancing Red Army troops, "that blonde hag is in for a bad time."

what is the source for the quote?

In a leaflet addressed to Soviet troops, Ehrenburg wrote: "...the Germans are not human beings...nothing gives us so much joy as German corpses." (Anatol Goldberg, Ilya Ehrenburg,)

Original source for the quote?

A leaflet composed by Ehrenburg and signed by Stalin was dropped on Red Army troops approaching Danzig. It read: 'Soldiers of the Red Army! Kill the Germans! Kill all Germans! Kill! Kill! Kill!'

Sounds like Duffy makes a error –here –“kill” was written in 1942 and it spoke not of all Germans – by any stretch of imagination –but about German soldiers.

[oleg]

P.S in regards to Erenburg http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t=erenburg

is not is sad that some odd 30 years later effect that Kuby describes is still alive and well?

p.S also http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... g&start=30

[M.H.]

I'm bowing out here since this argument is going nowhere...it's just plain for me to see that there is still alot to do on the russian side.
The germans know how painfull and difficult such a process is!
Tell us about denying, downplaying or flat out ignoring...it's so much easier to do....

[oleg]

I'm bowing out here since this argument is going nowhere...it's just plain for me to see that there is still alot to do on the russian side.
The germans know how painfull and difficult such a process is!
Tell us about denying, downplaying or flat out ignoring...it's so much easier to do....

obviously - look at you.

[Spandau]

But I will say this. While the Russians had no official policy (That I know of) advocating the rape of German women, the Soviet propaganda sure seemed to encourage it to the point that many Red Army soldiers felt that it was okay.
"All of us knew very well that if the girls were German they could be raped and then shot." -Alexander Solzhenitsyn
(Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr. The Gulag Archipelago, p.21)

Solzhenitsyn is good fiction writer… seems though that neither Soviet High command nor military prosecutors did not support his interesting opinion of his.

Referring to German women, Ehrenburg gloated to the advancing Red Army troops, "that blonde hag is in for a bad time."

what is the source for the quote?

In a leaflet addressed to Soviet troops, Ehrenburg wrote: "...the Germans are not human beings...nothing gives us so much joy as German corpses." (Anatol Goldberg, Ilya Ehrenburg,)

Original source for the quote?

A leaflet composed by Ehrenburg and signed by Stalin was dropped on Red Army troops approaching Danzig. It read: 'Soldiers of the Red Army! Kill the Germans! Kill all Germans! Kill! Kill! Kill!'

Sounds like Duffy makes a error –here –“kill” was written in 1942 and it spoke not of all Germans – by any stretch of imagination –but about German soldiers.

Ave Oleg!

Solzhenitsyn is a great writer of both fiction and nonfiction. In general, I would trust the observations of soldiers and eyewitnesses rather than high command concerning conditions and battlefield attitudes. Polititions have a tendancy to warp facts to suit their own needs. Memoir writers may be subject to misconceptions about the big picture, but I trust Solzhenitsyn on this one.

As for the original sources of those other quotes, I don't know exactly. I suppose I could paw through the bibliographies of those books, but I have to study a lot for my Literature/Philosophy double major at my University and I don't have a lot of spare time.

I can't grab off my shelf (My shelf is at home, my dorm library is woefully inadequate) direct sources that prove my impressions gleaned from reading in the past, so I realize that my argument right now is somewhat weak. "Oh, well, what the hell." -McWatt, Catch-22

Vale,

-Spandau

[oleg]

Solzhenitsyn is a great writer of both fiction and nonfiction. In general, I would trust the observations of soldiers and eyewitnesses rather than high command concerning conditions and battlefield attitudes. Polititions have a tendancy to warp facts to suit their own needs. Memoir writers may be subject to misconceptions about the big picture, but I trust Solzhenitsyn on this one.

Solzhenitsyn war an artillery captain at the time – I can get you quote of another artillery captain (Russian German actually) which contradict the quote of Solzhenitsyn directly – Solzhenitsyn have rather funny ways with number in General.

We crossed the border with Germany in the region of the Netze River at Kostschin (Kostrzyn). We were driving at night over the site of yesterday's battles. Exhausted soldiers slept in the back of the truck. Suddenly I saw a plywood arch over the road and a sign on it in large black letters. I read it and my skin became covered with goose bumps: "Here it is - the criminal Germany." I called my platoon commanders. The soldiers were woken up. Here, I say, we're entering the fascist beast's lair. In the morning the regiment commander arrived. We had it set up so that a look-out watches both the air and the road, expecting superiors. If he sees a commander's "Willys" he would also command "Alert!", same as during an air raid. The commander asks: "What did you feed the soldiers today?" "Well, porridge, as always" - I reply. "Sergeant major, come here. What did you feed the soldiers?" "Porridge, Comrade Colonel." "Porridge, porridge... I was at Terekhov's battery, they already procured pork, or whatever. Take a Studebaker or a Chevrolet and drive to a farm. Take everything they got." It must be said that beyond Netze the population in the radius of 20 km ran away, abandoning hungry farm animals. So our commanders were pushing us to pillage. Although, this ceased shortly because an order of the Front Commander Zhukov came out, saying something like: "We are a liberator army, which brought liberation to the German people, and we must treat the German people same as our own." But try to explain to simple Russian soldiers, who had relatives hanged or shot, houses destroyed, that they must forget everything at once?! It's impossible! The men were indignant: "Why am I supposed to forget what the Germans have done with my land, my relatives?" This transition was very painful. Because from the very Stalingrad to Germany's border we were advancing under the slogan: "Kill a German!" I still see Ilya Erenburg's articles in front of my eyes. You also have to keep in mind that the replacements in my battery by that time were mostly criminals, released due to amnesty. There was a case when my soldier, a criminal like that, raped a mother and daughter in a cemetery. I had to defend myself, write a report, SMERSH (stands for "Death to Spies", wartime military counter-intelligence organization - trans.) got interested, and he was put before a court martial. But there weren't any mass cases.

http://www.iremember.ru/artillerymen/shutc/shutc.html

[knieptang]

This whole Topic is sick!

Thanks to the User "max brainless"...


Michael

[max painless]

Well it's proven to be quite different then most of you expected. Knieptang, get lost! You have nothing to contribute, then don't make a post. As usual you have resorted to name calling, and childish immaturity! I would expect no less from you. I was just waiting for you to make your rude comment...sooner or later! Sounds like conventional wisdom on this subject may, or is wrong! I for one am glad to hear from Oleg.

[Simon Orchard]

The Germans are nothing if not sticklers for discipline and rape was severely dealt with as was plundering. That's not to say it never happened but it certainly wasn't condoned.

For your interest and education, a section of the orders of the 2 Geb.Div. on the eve of the start of it's campaign in the East.

[oleg]

The Germans are nothing if not sticklers for discipline and rape was severely dealt with as was plundering. That's not to say it never happened but it certainly wasn't condoned.

For your interest and education, a section of the orders of the 2 Geb.Div. on the eve of the start of it's campaign in the East.

and for thouse of us who don't speak German??????????

[Simon Orchard]

http://www.google.co.uk/language_tools?hl=en

Learn. I am, i still suck at it but i can make my way through most stuff. It kind of comes with the territory, not unreasonable to expect if you're interested in German history.