mSPW authorized for Panzer Division 44

Ron Klages · Post by **Ron Klages** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:17 pm

I have been attempting to sort the authorized allocation of SdKfz 251s by type by unit for the Panzer Division 44. I would also appreciate the KStN and its date if available. The Panzer Division 44 was established in April 1944 and I realize that there were later revisions made in 1944 but I am after the initial authorizations for Panzer Division 44.

Here is what I have so far.

• Panzer Regiment, I Btl = 2x 251/3, 2x251/7, 1x 251/8
• Panzer Regiment, II Btl = 2x 251/3, 2x251/7, 1x 251/8
• Stab, PGR "A"=6x 251/3, 3x 251/11
• I Btl, PGR "A"=41x 251/1, 6x 251/2. 11x 251/3, 1x 251/8, 12x 251/9,
3x 251/11, 18x 251/17
• IG kp(Sf) of PGR "A"=3x 251/1, 1x 251/3, 1x 251/11
• IG kp(Sf) of PGR "B"=3x 251/1, 1x 251/3, 1x 251/11
• Stab/PAA=7x 251/3, 1x 251/8, 2x 251/11
• 3./PAA=11x 251/1, 2x 251/2, 2x 251/3, 2x 251/9. 6x 251/17
• 4.(Hvy)/PAA=2x 251/1, 7x 251/2, 2x 251/3, 7x 251/7, 6x 251/9. =1x 251/11
• Stab/PJA=1x 251/8
• I.(sf)/PAR= 4x 251/3
• Stab/PPiBtl= 2x 251/1, 2x 251/2, 2x 251/3
• 1.(gp)/PPiBtl= 1x 251/1, 3x 251/3, 18x 251/7, 3x 251/17
• 2./PNA=8x 251/3

If I have typed this correctly then you total
251/1=63
251/2=17
251/3=52
251/7=35
251/8=5
251/9=20
251/11=11
251/16=6
251/17=27

Total=237 SdKfz 251s

This is if both PGRs have a self-propelled IG unit. If only one of the PGRs have an self-propelled IG unit then the numbers are:

251/1=60
251/2=17
251/3=51
251/7=35
251/8=5
251/9=20
251/11=10
251/16=6
251/17=27

Total=232 SdKfz 251s

Any help, advice and recommendations will be appreciated.

Thank you in advance,

Ron Klages

Nat · Post by **Nat** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:47 pm

Ron

As I recall the 3. PanzerAufklärungs Kompanie was organized just the same way as the 1-3 gep. PanzerGrenadier companies. With each company containing: 2x251/3, 7x251/17, 10x251/1, 2x251/2, 2x251/9.

Also it seems that you left out the mSPW's from the PzGren. Pioneer Company within the gep.PzGren Regt, 6x251/16, 6x251/7, 1x251/17, 1x251/3. The rest of your listing looks alright to me with one exception, shouldn't the s.PzAufkl.Komp have 6x251/2 instead of 7?

If I missed details from your post, please let me know!

Roger Griffiths · Post by **Roger Griffiths** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:33 am

No, Nat,

PzAA44 had Staff and Staff Coy. 251 and 234, 1 A/C Coy. 250/5 and 250/9, 2 Lt. Recce Coy. 250, 3 PG Coy. 251 (KStN 1114c 1Jul44, same as in armd. PG Coy.), and 4 Heavy Coy. 251.

Total for PD44 was 232 SdKfz. 251

PzRegt. 10

Armd. Pz.Gren.Regt. 120
Staff Coy. 9
Btl. Staff 6
3 Coys. 69 in total
Heavy Coy. 17
PGE Coy. 14
Heavy Gun Coy. 5

PzAA 58
Staff Coy. 10
3 PG Coy. 23
4 Heavy Coy. 25

PzJgA
Staff 1

PzAR
I Abt. 4

PzPiBtl.
Staff 6
Armd Coy. 25

PzNachrAbt. 8

The way I have laid out my list by sub-type is awkward. If I can bestir myself to sort it out, I will post.

Roger

Piet Duits · Post by **Piet Duits** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:55 am

Roger,

In the Perfect Organisation, the german Panzer-Division 44 would have had a grand total of 242 mittl. SPW:
58x SdKfz 251/1
16x SdKfz 251/2
48x SdKfz 251/3
4x SdKfz 251/5 (mittl. Beobachtungspanzerwagen)
37x SdKfz 251/7
7x SdKfz 251/8
20x SdKfz 251/9
14x SdKfz 251/11
6x SdKfz 251/16
32x SdKfz 251/17
2x SdKfz 251/19 (mittl. Fernsprechbetriebspanzerwagen)

The difference is found in the incorrect totals of men, vehicles, weapons etc. (Anlagen 2-6).
The Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung had in it's 1. (Fernsprech) Kompanie 6 SPW's (4x 251/11, 2x 251/19), and in the 2. (Funk) Kompanie 10 SPW's (all 251/3's, with a different radio setup).

The Anlagen I mentioned are incorrect in some ways. Especially when I compare the numbers with the original KStN's these numbers were based on.
For instance, in the case of the Pz.Nachr.Abt.: the totals of men and weapons are correct, while the number of mSPW are not.

Piet

Roger Griffiths · Post by **Roger Griffiths** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:34 am

Hi Piet,

Perhaps we should list our versions in full detail, to highlight differences. Only trouble is that for some of the shorter KStN, I copied out longhand, rather than get photocopies. AND, I have lost some of those longhand copies.

Roger

Piet Duits · Post by **Piet Duits** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:17 am

Roger,

Allright, here goes:

Pz. Rgt.
(2x) 1150 (fG) (1.4.44): 3x 251/7, 2x 251/8
(6x 251/7, 4x 251/8 )

Pz.Gren. Rgt. (gp.)
1104 (gp.) (1.4.44): 6x 251/3, 3x 251/11
1108a (gp.) (fG): 3x 251/3, 1x 251/8, 2x 251/11
(3x) 1114c (gp.) (fG) (1.7.44): 10x 251/1, 2x 251/2, 2x 251/3, 2x 251/9, 7x 251/17
1121a (gp.) (fG) (1.4.44): 1x 251/3, 1x 251/11
1126 (gp.) (1.4.44): 7x 251/1
1125 (gp.) (fG): 1x 251/1, 1x 251/3, 6x 251/9
1118 (1.4.44) (Ausf. B): 1x 251/3, 6x 251/7, 6x 251/16, 1x 251/17
1120a (1.4.44) (6 sIG): 3x 251/1, 1x 251/3, 1x 251/11
(41x 251/1, 6x 251/2, 19x 251/3, 6x 251/7, 1x 251/8, 12x 251/9, 7x 251/11, 6x 251/16, 22x 251/17)

Pz.Gren. Rgt. (mot.)
1120a (1.4.44) (6 sIG): 3x 251/1, 1x 251/3, 1x 251/11

Pz.Aufkl. Abt. (gp.)
1109 (gp.) (fG) (1.4.44): 7x 251/3, 1x 251/8, 2x 251/11, 13x 234/1, 3x 234/3
1162c (fG) (1.4.44): 9x 250/5, 16x 250/9
1113 (gp.) (fG) (1.4.44): 23x 250/1, 2x 250/3, 3x 250/7, 2x 250/8
1114c (gp.) (fG) (1.7.44): 10x 251/1, 2x 251/2, 2x 251/3, 2x 251/9, 7x 251/17
1121a (gp.) (fG) (1.4.44): 1x 251/3
1125 (gp.) (fG) (1.4.44): 1x 251/1, 1x 251/3, 6x 251/9
1126a (gp.) (fG) (1.4.44): 2x 251/1, 6x 251/2
1124a (gp.) (fG) (1.4.44): 7x 251/7
(23x 250/1, 2x 250/3, 9x 250/5, 3x 250/7, 2x 250/8, 16x 250/9, 13x 251/1, 8x 251/2, 10x 251/3, 7x 251/7, 1x 251/8, 251/9, 1x 251/11, 7x 251/17)

Pz.Jäg. Abt.
1106 (fG) (1.4.44) 1x 251/8

Pz.Art. Rgt.
407 (fG) (1.6.44): 1x 251/5
(2x) 431 (fG) (1.6.44) (Wespe): 1x 251/5
431 (fG) (1.6.44) (Hummel): 1x 251/5
(4x 251/5)

Pz.Pi. Btl.
703a (fG) (1.6.44): 6x 251/3
714 (fG) (1.6.44): 1x 251/1, 2x 251/2, 1x 251/3, 18x 251/7, 3x 251/17
(1x 251/1, 2x 251/2, 7x 251/3, 18x 251/7, 3x 251/17)

Pz.Nachr. Abt.
976 (1.5.44): 4x 251/11, 2x 251/19
971 (1.5.44): 10x 251/3 (+ 2x Pz.Bef. Wg.)
(10x 251/3, 4x 251/11, 2x 251/19)

Totals for the mittl. SPW: 58x 251/1, 16x 251/2, 48x 251/3, 4x 251/5, 37x 251/7, 7x 251/8, 20x 251/9, 14x 251/11, 6x 251/16, 32x 251/17, 2x 251/19
Grand Totals:55 le SPW, 244 mittl. SPW, 16 Pz.Sp.Wg.

Nat · Post by **Nat** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:35 am

Piet

Just of curiosity, does your numbers coincide with Dugdales research on the Pzdiv44?

Piet Duits · Post by **Piet Duits** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:58 am

Nat,

No. Dugdale also took the totals from the chart which was incorrect.
These charts I mentioned in a previous post also forgot the 4 Bergepanzer III's (2 from the Panzer-Regiment, 2 from the Panzerjäger-Abteilung).
Furthermore, the totals for unarmored vehicles (trucks and cars) does give different numbers of trucks as well. The totals are corerct, the types are not.
For example, an original KStN give -let's say- 1 Lkw 2t, 2 Lkw 2t (gl.), 10 Lkw 3t, 5 Lkw 3t (gl.) = 18 Lkw

The chart gives: 2 Lkw 2t, 1 Lkw 2t (gl.) 1 Lkw 3t, 14 Lkw 3t (gl.).

My headache is almost killing me: where did they get the numbers from? I haven't found Org.Abt. orders for changing, neither have I found changes in KStN in the Allgemeine Heeresmitteilungen.
Still, the amount of cross-country vehicles (= gl.) in the charts are a lot higher then they were in the KStN's.
Is this correct? No, I don't think so.

I am convinced the writers who were involved in making the charts for both the Panzer-Division 44 as well as the Panzer-Grenadier-Division 44 were high on chocolate

, and made unneccesarry errors.
The charts for the Infanterie-Division 44, the Gebirgs-Division 44 and the Jäger-Division 44 are correct.

Piet

Piet Duits · Post by **Piet Duits** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:17 pm

Hi all,

Here's some more info on the vehicles of the Pz.Nachr. Abt. 44

976, Panzerdivisionsfernsprechkompanie (1.5.44)
Gruppe Führer: 2 le Pkw, gl., (4-sitzig)
1. Zug: 5 le Pkw, gl., (4-sitzig), 2 Lkw 2t, geschlossen, gl., 2x SdKfz 251/19 (Fernsprechbetriebspanzerwagen) (both found in the mittl. Fernsprechbetriebstrupp 40 (gp.)
2. Zug: 3 le Pkw, gl. (4-sitzig), 4x mittl. Feldkabeltrupp 10 (gp.) with a SdKfz 251/11's each
3. Zug: 3 le Pkw, gl., (4-sitzig), 4x mittl. Feldkabeltrupp 12 (mot.) with a Lkw 2t, offen, gl.
4. Zug: like 3.
Tross: 1 Pkw, gl., (4-sitzig), 4x Lkw 3t, 1x Lkw 3t, offen, gl., 1x SdKfz 11

971, Panzerdivisionsfunkkompanie (1.5.44)
Gruppe Führer: 2 le Pkw, gl., (4-sitzig)
1. Zug: 2 Kommandofunktrupps 100/80 Mw (gp.), each 1x SdKfz 251/3-V, 1x mittl. Funktrupp 100 Mw (gp.) with 1x SdKfz 251/3-VI, 4x mittl. Funktrupp 100 Mw (mot.) with each 1x Lkw 2t, geschlossen, gl., Nachrichtenstaffel: 2x Panzerbefehlswagen (without type or whatever) (nach besonderer Anordnung)
2. Zug: 1 le Pkw, gl., (4-sitzig), 6x mittl. Funktrupp 80 Mw (gp.), with each 1x SdKfz 251/3-VII, 1x mittl. Funktrupp 15 Kzw (gp.) with 1x SdKfz 251/3-IX
3. Zug: 1 le Pkw, gl., (4-sitzig), 8x mittl. Funktrupp 80 Mw (mot.), each 1x Lkw 2t, geschlossen, gl.
4. Zug: 3 le Pkw, gl., (4-sitzig), 4x Lkw 2t, geschlossen, gl., 1x Lkw 3t, offen, gl., 1x Lkw 3t, geschlossen, gl.
Tross: 1x le Pkw, gl., (4-sitzig), 4x Lkw 3t, offen, 1x Lkw 3t, geschlossen, 1x Lkw 3t, offen, gl., 1x SdKfz 11

Piet

Nat · Post by **Nat** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:04 pm

Piet

Shouldn't K.St.N 1109 (gp.) be: 7x251/3, 2x251/11 & 15 234's (14 sdkfz 234's in 7 Panzerspähtruppen & 1x234 in the Stabskompanie)?

This is getting really confusing

Roger Griffiths · Post by **Roger Griffiths** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:39 pm

Thanks Piet,

I've been busy today, but have printed off your list and will compare with what I've got. As we must have the same original records, should be no problem.

Nat, you can rely on Piet.

Roger

Piet Duits · Post by **Piet Duits** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:13 pm

Roger,

Thanks for the support

(note to myself: tell Roger that my numbers are not always correct

@Nat : Nope.
You are referring to the 1.11.44 version.
That version is -as far as I know it- never used.
It was supposed to have 7x 251/3, 1x 251/8, 2x 251/11's. Then the Panzerspäh-element: 1x 234/1 for the HQ Company commander, then 7x Spähtrupps, each with 1x 234/1 and 1x 234/3... Yeah right!

Piet

Nat · Post by **Nat** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:37 pm

Piet

Interesting that you dismissed my figures, when in fact they were taken from figures of a Pz.Aufkl.Abt ,Pzdiv44 that you sent me a while back. Thats why I thought it confusing!

Now you're telling me there not correct?

Piet Duits · Post by **Piet Duits** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:40 pm

Nat,

When did I send you that? That must have been a long time ago, when I didn't have access to the correct KStN's.
I can not imagine me sending you wrong data, especially not when I have the correct data at hand.

Piet

Nat · Post by **Nat** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:48 pm

Piet

Yes it was quite a while ago, unfortunately (it seems) i've based my miniature armor organization on it.

Perhaps you could give me the detailed updated version!

Feldgrau.net

mSPW authorized for Panzer Division 44

mSPW authorized for Panzer Division 44

Roger, here goes: