German War crimes in Russia

Orzel · Post by **Orzel** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:12 pm

im a madman? if pointing out that germans killed people and they have every reason to be ashamed, then yes im a madman. some people on here seem to be dissilusional about germany, TWICE this country has risen up to goosetep its way to world domination, twice, rabid dogs are shot only if they bite someone once. As far as other members pointing out that there are cities in eastern europe that are clear of germans, well for that fact the germans have no-one to blame but themselves, We the Poles allowed german settlers to live in Poland freely for centuries and we even allowed them to pursue their different sects of christianity without fear of religious persecution. The germans started the war and they reaped the crops they sowed. Thats it plain and simple, if you play with fire you will be burned. The very fact that you dare bring up german suffering betrays your pro-german attitude, how dare you compare the suffering of innocent victims to the punishement administered to the aggresors. You germans deserve to hang your heads very very low, after thanks to your culture of superiority etc you have become synonomous with hate, mass murder etc. After all when skinheads march they dont wave Polish flags but german ones. besides whats the point of arguing this back and forth, you will never see the fact that being a german is nothing to be proud of. Your precious forefathers from the Teutonic Knights through the Prussians and to the SS have assured you a legacy of shame, mass murder, genocide etc.

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:33 pm

besides whats the point of arguing this back and forth, you will never see the fact that being a german is nothing to be proud of. Your precious forefathers from the Teutonic Knights through the Prussians and to the SS have assured you a legacy of shame, mass murder, genocide etc.

No comment.

Panzer37 · Post by **Panzer37** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:27 pm

Is very sad to see there is so much hatred still out there.

2nd SS Panzer Das Reich · Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:26 pm

Orzel wrote:im a madman? if pointing out that germans killed people and they have every reason to be ashamed, then yes im a madman. some people on here seem to be dissilusional about germany, TWICE this country has risen up to goosetep its way to world domination, twice, rabid dogs are shot only if they bite someone once. As far as other members pointing out that there are cities in eastern europe that are clear of germans, well for that fact the germans have no-one to blame but themselves, We the Poles allowed german settlers to live in Poland freely for centuries and we even allowed them to pursue their different sects of christianity without fear of religious persecution. The germans started the war and they reaped the crops they sowed. Thats it plain and simple, if you play with fire you will be burned. The very fact that you dare bring up german suffering betrays your pro-german attitude, how dare you compare the suffering of innocent victims to the punishement administered to the aggresors. You germans deserve to hang your heads very very low, after thanks to your culture of superiority etc you have become synonomous with hate, mass murder etc. After all when skinheads march they dont wave Polish flags but german ones. besides whats the point of arguing this back and forth, you will never see the fact that being a german is nothing to be proud of. Your precious forefathers from the Teutonic Knights through the Prussians and to the SS have assured you a legacy of shame, mass murder, genocide etc.

OMFG what do you mean "aggresors"? Germans living in their homes were innocents they new NOTHING of what was going on in the death camps. They did not deserve to lose their homes. have you heard of the white rose underground? Those were Germans fighting Nazism. Did the members of the White Rose deserve to die?

It's like killing all white people for inslaving blacks.

Oh ya Im a German American and guess what the Teutonic Knight the Prussians and the Germany of the Great War and World War II is what im proud of. And they should hang are heads very low indeed so indeed so they can get a good look at Warsaw or should I say... "What used to be Warsaw!"

And by the way I am not racist againist the Polish people, I just don't like you... I have a Polish friend by the way. He was a Green Beret in Vietnam and served 6 tours their, me and him get along good. We talk about warfare all the time.

And oh ya this is clearly not the forum for you seeing as how you don't like the Wehrmacht. A holocaust forum would be a wonderful place foe you their you can bash Germans, drown in your own river of tears, and listen all day and night to the BS you clearly would love to hear.

Shmeiker · Post by **Shmeiker** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 3:55 am

Let's not quarrel, because it usually does not bring any good results. In most cases both sides leave it assured, that they were right, and the opponent is a complete nuts.

Of course not all Germans were bad. Of course some of them were trying to fight Nazi, some of them were even preparing assassinations against Hitler (which took great courage to try, and great pain to see it fail, and bear the consequences). But simple question to 2nd SS Panzer Das Reich:

How many members had "White Rose"? And how many members had NSDAP?

---

As for millions of Germans expulsed and hundreds of thousands who died while they were being removed from Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and other places - many of them were innocent, BUT MANY OF THEM WERE BASTARDS GIVING IN TO GESTAPO THEIR FELLOW NEIGHBOURS THE JEWS and the Poles (and others) who often gave homage to Jews. Penalty for such a homage was capital punishment (most often) or KL (sometimes). Nothing is white or black, but it becomes more and more hilarious to see people trying to present Germans as victims of WW II. "When you play with matches, you might get burned" - so they did and so they got.

---

Warsaw or as 2nd SS Panzer Das Reich said "What used to be Warsaw!" has been totally destroyed (with German precision; by demolition squads coming from one house to another) for its Uprising against agressors. I frankly do not see any point in bringing it to present any of German glory - to say it straight, it shows Germans in quite blury light (to be very delicate).

---

Dear 2nd SS Panzer Das Reich: if you are so proud of Teutonic Knights, I suppose you would be interested to be reminded (being their fan, you must know that already) that Poles kicked their asses big time in June 1410 at Grunwald/Tannenberg undermining their power, followed by war 1454-1466 when Poles regained i.e. Gdansk/Danzig and finally in 1525 when Poles broke Teutonic neck (Teutons came to Polish king asking to be his vassals - they were accepted).

But this forum is about 1939-1945 so enough about Teutons.

2nd SS Panzer Das Reich · Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:44 am

Shmeiker wrote: ---

As for millions of Germans expulsed and hundreds of thousands who died while they were being removed from Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and other places - many of them were innocent, BUT MANY OF THEM WERE BASTARDS GIVING IN TO GESTAPO THEIR FELLOW NEIGHBOURS THE JEWS and the Poles (and others) who often gave homage to Jews. Penalty for such a homage was capital punishment (most often) or KL (sometimes). Nothing is white or black, but it becomes more and more hilarious to see people trying to present Germans as victims of WW II. "When you play with matches, you might get burned" - so they did and so they got.

Indeed but they had no choice but to summit to the Gestapo, If they protested they would be shoot. Tell me do you believe the German women were raped who were raped by Russians needed to be "taught a lession"?

and about the Teutonic Knight's yes the Poles beat them... HOWEVER the Prussians have smashed Poland to peaces three times and divided it with Russians. And we all know about the 18 days in 1939 when Poland was distoryed.

You can't really blame the German people, you can blame the Nazis. The Nazis are the ones who killed jews not the German race. Not all Germans were Nazis alot of them im sure would be holding up signs that read "drop Hitler... Not bombs!" (if Germany had freedom of speech). I do not feel sorry for Hitler but I feel sorry for the German people.

It's like a kid commits a crime and his parents geting blamed for it!

Orzel · Post by **Orzel** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:27 pm

round and round we go, and who were these mysterious nazis you keep placing the blame on, Ive said it before and I'll say it again watch the movie Trial at Nuremberg with Spencer Tracy, theres a great line in there, "Who were the nazis, certainly they werent Germans, its funny there are no Nazis in Germany, it was the Eskimos who took over Germany and imposed the Nazi doctrine" These same innocent Germans who gladly accepted gold coins from melted teeth or lamp shades from human skins. The main point is this like it or not in the eyes of the world Germany will be always seen as guilty and as such as the nation will bear the shame for still a long time.

Sebastian Pye · Post by **Sebastian Pye** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:23 am

hi I think Orzel is an idiot. thats all I have to contribute to this thread but its important that someone say it out loud and clear

Shmeiker · Post by **Shmeiker** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:10 am

To 2nd SS Panzer Das Reich

2nd SS Panzer Das Reich wrote:
Indeed but they had no choice but to summit to the Gestapo, If they protested they would be shoot. Tell me do you believe the German women were raped who were raped by Russians needed to be "taught a lession"?

Obviously I do not believe in this kind of justice. All the guilty ones should be tried and sentenced. Explanation given often by Soviets that they had right to rape German women because Germans commited atrocities against Soviets in the first place is in my opionio simply barbaric and inhumane.

But I do not understand your sentence: "Indeed but they had no choice but to summit to the Gestapo, If they protested they would be shoot." I am afraid I did not express myself clearly so I refrase it: many volksdeutsche VOLUNTARILY AND WITHOUT ANY OUTSIDE PRESSURE mistreated their neighbours just because they had the chance (German forces deployed nearby and German occupation of the teritory). They VOLUNTARILY reported Jews and people who were helping Jews to Gestapo knowing this will bring their immediate death - just becasue they were volksdeutsche and wanted to prove themselves useful and patriotic. Of course not all of them were doing it (and please do not ask what was the percentage of all volksdeutsche, because nobody ever calculated it) - I just say it was common, standard procedure for many volksdeutsche. And please keep it in mind that in most cases it involved people neighbouring with each other for years before the war, living together in peace and in many cases with no problems. Just after the war broke this kind of scum started to happen and "in the blink of an eye" a friendly German was turning himself into voluntary Gestapo cooperative.

2nd SS Panzer Das Reich wrote: You can't really blame the German people, you can blame the Nazis. The Nazis are the ones who killed jews not the German race. Not all Germans were Nazis alot of them im sure would be holding up signs that read "drop Hitler... Not bombs!" (if Germany had freedom of speech). I do not feel sorry for Hitler but I feel sorry for the German people.

Of course I can and will blame German people for starting the war and commiting all these atrocities, like Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka, Dachau. Who were these Nazi you talk about? Aliens, extraterrestial individuals? Sorry, but no - they were GERMANS. You claim that many Germans did not support Hitler and the like? So how many people joined NSDAP? How many youngsters joined Hitlerjugend? How many women were screwing around with selected SS-men to deliver racially clean offsprings? Who voted for Hitler to rule the Germany in open and free voting? Who has put him to Reichstag? I suppose the Germans.

Certainly many Germans at the front line did not know or did not care - they were just fighting for their country - I see no problem with such an attitude. There were Germans who simply prefered to be left alone to keep their normal life, who did not want any war, who did not want any problems, and who did not share the Hitler's idea of New Order. There were finally Germans who even participated in active resistance against Hitler and his system - brave men and women; but how many of them? What was this handful compared to the rest?

Of course this is all the past. People currently living in Germany do not have any connection to these events (except for very old ones of course) - many of them despise it, as any other normal human being would do. Putting blame on them is not logical. But the fact is the fact: Germans started WWII and commited gigantic number of atrocities, and the first in this line is first-time-ever-so-huge, well organized and incredibily efficient genocide. Obviously many other nations are to be blamed as well, but it is Germans who built Auschwitz where 1,2-1,5 mln people were killed in one place, to give this very well known and never surpassed example.

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:46 am

Obviously many other nations are to be blamed as well, but it is Germans who built Auschwitz where 1,2-1,5 mln people were killed in one place, to give this very well known and never surpassed example.

Or maybe Gulags were just a kindergarten?

many volksdeutsche VOLUNTARILY AND WITHOUT ANY OUTSIDE PRESSURE mistreated their neighbours just because they had the chance (German forces deployed nearby and German occupation of the teritory). They VOLUNTARILY reported Jews and people who were helping Jews to Gestapo knowing this will bring their immediate death

Yes, and the Jews didn't have any capos of their own...

There were finally Germans who even participated in active resistance against Hitler and his system - brave men and women; but how many of them? What was this handful compared to the rest?

Are you reffering to the White rose? The highly dangerous university debate club?

Or do you mean the officers who wanted to dispose of Hitler but still protect their fatherland from the advancing enemies?

my two cents...

best,
Nibelung

Beppo Schmidt · Post by **Beppo Schmidt** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:36 am

So Germans have a legacy of mass murder, eh? What about Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Goethe, Schiller, Haydn, Einstein, Guttenberg, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, these people are not part of our legacy?

Thank God you no more speak for all Poles than German skinheads speak for all Germans, as I have a number of Poles I am perfectly good friends with, and my being German and their being Polish has never caused the slightest strain whatsoever, and why the hell would it?

2nd SS Panzer Das Reich · Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 am

Shmeiker wrote:To 2nd SS Panzer Das Reich

Of course I can and will blame German people for starting the war and commiting all these atrocities, like Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka, Dachau. Who were these Nazi you talk about? Aliens, extraterrestial individuals? Sorry, but no - they were GERMANS. You claim that many Germans did not support Hitler and the like? So how many people joined NSDAP? How many youngsters joined Hitlerjugend? How many women were screwing around with selected SS-men to deliver racially clean offsprings? Who voted for Hitler to rule the Germany in open and free voting? Who has put him to Reichstag? I suppose the Germans.

About the Hitler youth... It was not a choice, they had to sign up. It was like school here in America, kids have to go to it does not matter if they like it or not.

Also it was not most Germans are Nazis but rather most Nazis are German. Yes they took gold from dead jews. But alot of Germans issued the gold had no idea were it was coming from. The Germans who lost their homes I feel sorry for them. But they have no right to wine because the Wehrmacht was kicking so much ass it was not even funny.

And as a final note: I hold nothing againist Poles. As I said before I know a ex Green Beret who is Polish me and him are good friends.

Shmeiker · Post by **Shmeiker** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:49 am

The problem with forum (a forum in general, not particularily this one) is that firstly discussion takes really long, exchange of arguments as well (relates to Nibelung), and secondly it is often the case when writing about one must either concentrate on the subject stricktly or write lengthy and poring decertations. If one choses to be strick immediatelly there is someone pointing out that the one dared not to mention something which is related but very loosely (realtes to Beppo). If one choses to be lengthy noone remembers what he wrote in the beginning.

To Nibelung

Gulags killed many people - how many nobody knows exactly, but it surely goes in millions. However as for now, there is no SINGLE gulags where 1,2-1,5 mln people were killed in one place. This infamous and inhumane record belongs to KL Auschwitz which was run by Germans. And if you prefer to deal with gulas as the whole, let me deal with KLs as the whole and add Treblinka, Dachau, Majdanek and many others. My point was simple - biggest-mass-murder-place. It was Auschwitz.

To Beppo

Of course Germany was a vaterland of many enlighted, briliant people (like the ones which you mentioned, but also meny more, who you did not - naming them all would take too much time and space). Without their contribution world would be much dumber (for innovators) and uglier (for artists) place. For centuries they were vital of world's development in many areas.

But Germany was also a vaterland of Hitler, biggest scale ever genocide, making soap of human bodies and blankets of human hair.

I understand that this is psychologically natural to try to enlarge the importance of the favourable facts and negleckt those which are truly shameful.

This is the reason why now there is a tendency to give magnitude to Germans removed after the war, and those of them who died while being expulsed. And in the same time to "accidently forget" that number of people deprived of property and killed (to avoid any future claims) by the Germans during WW II was a couple of time bigger.

This is the reason why I often hear that it is Nazis who started war, who conducted all those atrocities, while Germans were just, fair, were fighting to defend their land (forgetting they invaded i.e. France or Yugoslavia - where is their land there ? - I leave Poland aside not to start another discussion, but I PERSONALLY believe that Poland should be placed even before France) or were defending Europe against communism (this is really outragous - but please to do comment this - if you wish so, start another thread). So Nazis were bad, while Germans were good but supressed.

Sorry to break it to you but (I know I repeat myself, but "German advocats" always "forget" to reply to this):

- Germans elected Hitler
- Germans voted for NSDAP
- Germans were happy to get "Lebensraum" in the East (which was depriving of property Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Ukrainians, Belorussians and others)
- Germans hearfully welcomed Anschluss of Austria, subdueing of Czechoslovakia, conquest of Poland and France

This was done by Germans, not by Nazi. Germany was a democrating state, they wished to be that way.

---

To avoid immediate replies that I did not write about this and that I must add shortly:

- Not all Germans were Nazi.
- Joining Hitlerjugend was often expected froma child (and if he did not, this could be viewed negatively).
- Many Germans soldiers were fighting because they believed this was their duty - I have no problem with this attitude.
- Some German soldiers did not want to participate in war at all - they were fighting becasue their families were threatened by Gestapo (should they defect for example).
- Some of Germans units were truly an elite and came to history books as examples for military ability and superiority.
- Raping women is never an act for revenge - it is a crime.
- Nothing is black and white, there are always difficult decisions, judging any action looking only from one side brings invalid conclusions.

I cannot think of any other additions right now - I am affraid that anyhow there will be some "wise guy" who will point out that I dared not too mention this and that. My reply would be: sorry, I cannot write about everything in just one post.

Nibelung · Post by **Nibelung** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:13 am

You got me there!! After reading your post, and reading mine again...well I feel stupid.

You are 100% right, no offence.

best,
Nibelung

Igorn · Post by **Igorn** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:46 am

Here we go,

Some information and fotos on The nazi atrocities in the Soviet Union [Russia] 22 june 1941 > 9 may 1945 for my friend Gebirgsjaeger who wanted to see some facts or evidence of the German war crimes.

http://katardat.org/marxuniv/2002-SUWW2 ... lties.html

http://katardat.org/marxuniv/2002-SUWW2 ... -Kovno.jpg

http://katardat.org/marxuniv/2002-SUWW2 ... anen02.jpg

Best Regards from Russia,