War in Georgia

[michael kenny]

Yet another article from a right-wing British Newspaper that simply does not accept the US view of the situation.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... nyday.html

This story is a complete non-event in the UK and most of the coverage seems to blame the UK/US for opening the door for this by their own invasions. Despite attempts to whip up a rection against Russia the public remember how they were decieved over Iraq. They have not fallen for the humbug.

[phylo_roadking]

Georgians including ones who called themselves peace keepers on the first day of the conflict treacherously attacked the Russian peace keeping troops and killed 10 Russian soldiers who were in Georgia in accordance with UN mandate. Then they shelled the Tskinvalli with GRAD Multiple-Launch Rocket systems killing 2 thousand of civilians, mainly Russian citizens and destroying people houses and buildings

Strangely enough - TODAY the International Committee of the Red Cross announced that it could find no evidence of more than 46 people being killed in the bombardment of Tskinvalli.

Even more strangely...overnight the Russians REDUCED the alledged death toll from 2,000...to 166, including 64 military casualties during the invasion

The Fact remains that the Russians and Georgian forces signed a ceasefire and the Russians have not fully honoured it as of yet

And HOW many days is that since they signed the ceasefire???

This story is a complete non-event in the UK and most of the coverage seems to blame the UK/US for opening the door for this by their own invasions

Michael - you mean most of the newspaper columnists and commentators. They are not "most" of the "coverage" - they're not the ones doing the covering at all. I have YET to hear "seems to blame the UK/US for opening the door for this by their own invasions" or anything like it from anyone actually "covering" the events. And the television "press" isn't picking up and running with the Russian line AT ALL.

[michael kenny]

As I said apart from the press and TV no one cares at all. It just is not a concern here. We get the Politicians making empty speeches about it but no one listens. I see no swell of support for Georgia and no desire to blame Russia-no one cares!

[phylo_roadking]

We get the Politicians making empty speeches about it but no one listens. I see no swell of support for Georgia and no desire to blame Russia-no one cares!

Which is a fair personal view. But "lack of interest" doesn't have any bearing on the rights and wrongs of the issue...

[Uli]

Funny that some call for 'honor' and 'integrity' and 'forthrightness' on Russia's part--particularly given the United States' own famously dishonest diplomatic track-record spanning the past eight years.

There are those in Moscow who say that the U.S. "invented" the tragedy as part of a scheme to garner a late-summer bounce in the polls for John McCain, and it's difficult to argue otherwise given McCain's overnight rise in popularity.

At any rate, the first missiles to fall in the conflict--according to virtually every news account--were of Georgian origin. Russia is merely defending her southern border. American advisors definitely weren't in Georgia for Russia's health or welfare. And someone said the Russians aren't...reliable?

Tsk, tsk.

Will someone please say the words "Weapons of Mass Destruction"?

[sniper1shot]

the first missiles to fall in the conflict--according to virtually every news account--were of Georgian origin.

No one has ever said they weren't.

Russia is merely defending her southern border.

Which meant walking right into the neighbouring country and staying there......

American advisors definitely weren't in Georgia for Russia's health or welfare.

Correct.....they were there for Georgia's.

someone said the Russians aren't...reliable?

Not sure who said that one but I did ask the question of when the Russians have ever given the Western powers reason to trust them.

[Hans]

And the Russians have cause to trust the West/USA?
Give me a break.

- Hans

[phylo_roadking]

This is true; those are the countries that the Russians can't trust to carry out all the provisions of the SALT limitiation treaties they're obligated to, or can't trust to respect the territorial integrity of Georgia - as the Russians agreed and have rigorously respected - and that can't be trusted enough to allow to debate Georgia at the UN.

yes, very untrsutworthy indeed.

[sniper1shot]

And the Russians have cause to trust the West/USA?

Why would you say Not?

[Uncle Joe]

I think Correlli Barnett´s article was spot on. It simply amazes me how double standard people phylo and snipershot are.

[phylo_roadking]

Double standards? Hmm - i wonder - quite HOW many times in one thread do I need to actually say I don't agree with the Americans being in Iraq EITHER??? But at least I'm not blinkered enough to ignore the facts of the present situation.

[sniper1shot]

Yes, Uncle Joe, there is a double standard.
*nodding my head and smiling*

I too have said that the US invasion of Iraq was misrepresented and that the US people were lied to about the WMD......
Let us just see the past here.....Every country that the US lands in.....Japan, Korea, Germany, Bosnia etc...they end up leaving EXCEPT for some Military bases. These countries all have their own governments that don't answer to anyone. This does incl Iraq as US forces have signed that they will be out of there by 2011. (My belief is that there will be some US bases there too though)

Every country that Russia lands in they end up staying and occupying....Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc....these countries though they did have their own governments DID answer to someone....Russia. That is until the wall came down. This is why the Western Powers do not trust Russia.

You never did answer me question as to what the US/Western Powers have done so that Russia would have reason NOT to trust them.

I will admit that I have not been following the war in Georgia so I can not answer to whether Russian forces have pulled out or not.

[phylo_roadking]

Every country that Russia lands in they end up staying and occupying....Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc....

And that is still happening - the Russian navy in the Ukraine? And did those rusting ships ever come home from Angola and Mozambique after the Cold War?

Regarding the withdrawal - there have AT LAST been significant withdrawals in the last 48 hours - only five days late - BUT what's more important now is the ommissions. The Russians seem intent of creating a permanent security zone for themsleves ACROSS the South Ossetian border i.e. in Georgia...and there are places where there is as yet NO withdrawal. One of these is the port of Poti which is going to be a major issue. The Rusian position is that the French-brokered ceasefire allows them to...whereas the rest of the world's interpretation INCLUDING the French is that the "security zone" the ceasefire talked about was the joint security zone ALREADY in place inside South Ossetia, the one shared previously by Russia and Georgia.

[Yuri]

Every country that Russia lands in they end up staying and occupying....Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc....

And that is still happening - the Russian navy in the Ukraine? And did those rusting ships ever come home from Angola and Mozambique after the Cold War?

Regarding the withdrawal - there have AT LAST been significant withdrawals in the last 48 hours - only five days late - BUT what's more important now is the ommissions. The Russians seem intent of creating a permanent security zone for themsleves ACROSS the South Ossetian border i.e. in Georgia...and there are places where there is as yet NO withdrawal. One of these is the port of Poti which is going to be a major issue. The Rusian position is that the French-brokered ceasefire allows them to...whereas the rest of the world's interpretation INCLUDING the French is that the "security zone" the ceasefire talked about was the joint security zone ALREADY in place inside South Ossetia, the one shared previously by Russia and Georgia.

Into my intentions does not enter to offend you. Absolutely is not present. However I am compelled to tell directly, that all that you here speak it nonsense. Thus I clearly understand, that you the person not the silly. All the matter is that you base your judgements about occurring events exclusively under messages of the western propagation. Differently your nonsense is a consequence of the massed influence on your brain of the western propagation.
First, why «after five days»? Whence you it took?
Secondly, safety zones are defined in 1992, that is sixteen years ago. And at the desire of the Georgian party. Difference of a present situation consists that before at these safety zones were present (along with Russian and Osset to peacemakers) as also the Georgian peacemakers. Now (as the Georgian peacemakers discredited, having opened shooting on Russian peacemakers) in safety zones the Georgian will not be.
Before to hurl serious charges towards Russian, you should study thoroughly the nature and history of conflicts in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Besides, for objectively judgement it is necessary to consider chronology of events strictly. If it not to observe, will be constantly trapped (differently, you constantly will look a fool).
Please, keep in mind, that Russian have possibility to know all (literally all), that writes in newspapers and shows on TV the western propagation about Russia. On the other hand, inhabitants of the western countries has no possibility to read and see how the Russian propagation shines these events. Differently, Russian see as shine events both parties whereas inhabitants of the western countries are deprived such possibility. Besides Russian have possibility to communicate with witnesses directly.
That is why, yours sincere indignation about "dishonesty" of Russian, for people informed simply ridiculously.

[phylo_roadking]

Yuri - noone here has anything but respect for the Russian PEOPLE, don't worry

Governments are - by definition - another matter...no matter WHAT nation.

First, why «after five days»? Whence you it took?

The Western media has had Georgia saturated with camera crews and reports for a fortnight now - on BOTH sides of "the lines" - watching events. The ceasefire agreement and its clasuse on withdrawal was signed last SATURDAY IIRC and the media watched in DOZENS of locations for withdrawal to begin. Which it didn't. In fact - for several days quite the reverse.

in safety zones the Georgian will not be

Yuri - actually, noone is disputing that, that by the terms of the ceasefire there WON'T be Georgian troops in the OLD safety zones INSIDE South Ossetia and Abkhazia...

The issue NOW is that the Moscow government is talking about NEW safety zones - ACROSS the South Ossetian and Abkhazian borders and well into was was previously NEVER-disputed definitely Georgian territory - NOT the old ones inside the two breakaway regions. Everyone accepts that by the terms of the ceasefire, and prior to any attempts at a more lasting settlement - those are now closed to Georgian troops.

But they were INSIDE the two areas. This is something else