Panzergelb in Russia before 1943? The one law defied?

Einsamer_Wolf · Post by **Einsamer_Wolf** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 11:46 am

SALUT!

I am a bit befuddled. I picked up Ospreys book on the SdKfz 251 halftrack. On colorplate B, #2, a 251/1 C is depicted, supposedly of the 24 Panzer Division, Russia 1942. Despite what I thought was the one axiom in the science of German Panzers--that, with exception of hardware in the Afrika Corps, as well as a white-coat for winter camouflage, all German AFVs vehicles before Februyary 1943 were in Panzergelb--this one is in Panzergelb. This one law is the very first thing i learned when I took a serious interest the history of Panzer camouflage and markings a little over a year ago. ANd yet--low and behold--this color plate depicting an AFV in Russia 1942 is in Panzergelb! What gives?

Warm Regards,

Einsamer Wolf

Paul Hanson · Post by **Paul Hanson** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:21 am

Look at Plate B2, and especially observe the rear portion and side panniers of the 251, you will see the tan color is very scratched and worn with dunkelgrau showing thru.

Then going to page 37 :

"B2: SdKfz 251/1 Ausf. C, 24. Panzer-Division; Russia, 1942

The forward MG34 appears to be fitted on the 'heavy' mount. This vehicle is almost completely covered in a coating of mud, and a streaked effect is visible on the side bins."

So far so good, the first law is still valid.

PH

derGespenst · Post by **derGespenst** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:32 pm

Be careful of putting too much trust in "laws". According to Bruce Culver's Panzer Colors I, in early 1942 mottling and color patterns began to be used over the standard dark grey "as per pre-war practices", the patterns being in dark green and sometimes dark brown. Field commanders were given great latitude in ordering and applying paint. In addition, many vehicles painted and intended for North Africa were shipped to Russia instead to make up for the losses of the previous winter.

Paul Hanson · Post by **Paul Hanson** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 5:57 pm

I would be the last person to trust in laws, but trusting Bruce's PC series is just as dangerous. Bill Murphy, co-author of the first book, posted a complete webpage listing the multitude of errors in the second and third book plus errors he uncovered about what they believed in the first book. Bluntly, the PC series is not a set of references in which to completely base your trust.

This is not to bash Bruce Culver. He and I have corresponded on numerous times and we have had a couple of discussions concerning PCI-III. His comment is that the most flagrant error they made was to interview veterans and trust their memories. What the vets remembered often turned out to be totally wrong or simply one-of-a-kind schemes or markings that were never used again or used outside of the general camouflage/insignia/tactical marking rules; thus leading to numerous errors in the PC series. The point was when S/S produced these books they were the cutting edge and no one else had even attempted to produce this comprehensive of a document. It's just that time and the opening of other resources unavailble to Bruce, Bill and others have surpassed the PC series. It's still useful, you just have to know where the mistakes are.

PH

Paul_9686 · Post by **Paul_9686** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:37 pm

I've heard that the 5th Panzer Division was originally scheduled to go to North Africa, but after the 2nd Panzer Division suffered severe loss of vehicles and personnel from II/Pz. Rgt. 3 when their ship taking them back to Italy from Greece was sunk by a British sub, the 5th was sent to the Eastern Front instead--with all its vehicles painted with desert camo!

Is this true?

Yours,
Paul

Christian Ankerstjerne · Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:56 pm

There were vehicles that were not Dunkelgrau, but some other colour(s). As an example, take a look at this photograph:

This photograph is from 22 July 1942, and is a Pz.Kpfw. III Ausf. L from the 6. Panzergrenadierdivision in Woronesch. There are photos of other vehicles from this Zug, which also have this camouflage.

It is impossible to say which colour these are. The colours available (i.e. in use) at the time were:
Dunkelgrau (dark grey)
Braun-gelb (brown-yellow)
Braun (brown)
Grau-grün (grey-green)
Grau (grey)

The four last colours were only for use in Africa, but it wouldn't be impossble that they have been used in Europe as well. Dunkelgelb would be highly unlikely to be available for use seven months prior to its issue...

Another possibility would be that old stocks of Feldgrau-matt, Erdgelb-matt, Braun-matt, Grün-matt and Dunkelbraun have been available, and has been used.

A further possible answer would be that local stocks of paint have been used - which could explain that the painting of the vehicles in certain colours seems concentrated to certain units. Another example of this are the very light Stu.G. III Ausf. F/8s in Stalingrad (see the picture below).

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 2:27 pm

There are also color photos of sand coloured Stg. in Stalingrad.

\Christoph

Paul Hanson · Post by **Paul Hanson** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 2:56 pm

I also have read, in various sources, of vehicles or units scheduled for Africa sent instead to the Eastern Front to replace un-anticipated losses painted with RAL 8000 gelbbraun, or later with RAL 8020 braun. So to see photos like this does not surprise me.

It seems to me that all the reports of dunkelgelb earlier than 1942 are easily explained by these re-assignments. So dunkelgelb 7028 is really gelbbraun 8000 or braun 8020.

Again, remember the exact shade/hue of these colors is not been truly determined. So these colors may be closer in hue/shade than we have believed before and therefore differences may be very difficult to determine in a B/W photo.

PH

Christian Ankerstjerne · Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:19 pm

Since it's quite hard to guess what colour 'Braun' is, but assuming that it's quite dark, I guess that the Pz.Kpfw. III Ausf. L above is most likely braun on Braungelb...

Christian

Paul_9686 · Post by **Paul_9686** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:32 pm

Begging your pardon, Christian, but regarding the first photo, don't you mean 6th Panzer Division? I'm not aware that there ever was a 6th Panzergrenadier Division.

Yours,
Paul

Christian Ankerstjerne · Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:02 pm

Sorry, that is to be 16. Infanteriedivision (Mot.)

(I got the info from someone else, and I guess the person has forgotten the '1', ad inturpreted Inf.Div. (Mot.) as Pz.Gren.

Christian

Paul_9686 · Post by **Paul_9686** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:57 pm

Oh; I see. Then I suppose, Christian, that the 16th had received at least some vehicles originally scheduled for North Africa, when it was given a brand new panzer abteilung?

Yours,
Paul

Paul Hanson · Post by **Paul Hanson** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:17 pm

Now I am interested. Which Divisional unit of the 16th Infantrie-Division had armor?

PH

Paul Hanson · Post by **Paul Hanson** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:36 pm

I still do not believe that any Infantrie Division had armor in 1943.

My quick research indicates that the 3rd Panzer Division under the 4th Panzerarmee (Hoth) would have been operating in the Woronesch area. This would make this vehicle part of the 6th Panzer Regt; not 6th Panzergrenadier Div. This would be a more logical choice for a unit operating Panzer III's than an Infantrie Division.

Christian Ankerstjerne · Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:00 am

The vehicle carries the insignia of the 16. Infanteriedivision (Mot.) as described on World War II day by day...

Christian

Feldgrau.net

Panzergelb in Russia before 1943? The one law defied?

Panzergelb in Russia before 1943? The one law defied?

Sd kfz 251 Ausf C

Trusting in Panzer Colors