E-Boats v PT Boats

ptdockyard · Post by **ptdockyard** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:50 am

In reality, USN PT boats actually fought S-boats a few times:

-One engagement possibly off the N. African coast May 1943 (S-boats not identified- could have been Italian MS boats). Battle broken up by RN destroyers who started firing at both sides.
-Off Sicily August 1943 - Three Higgins boats vs. two S-151 class "Maxchen" Boats. Both sides suffered some gun damage, no one sunk. Higgens armed with 4-.50cal, 4-.30 cal and two 20mm.
-Elco boats vs. German forces off Le Harve. Several actions were fought with the end result of one S-boat sunk. Elcos armed with 4-.50 cal, 1-40mm Bofors and either 1-20mm or 1-37mm M4 on the bow . PTs in these battles also sank an AFP with torpedoes.

Final score : PTs 1, S-boats 0.

Enrico Cernuschi · Post by **Enrico Cernuschi** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:28 pm

Hello Dave,

I did't know about a clash between USN and German MTBs off SAicily in Aug. 1943. May you add some details (date, position, ect.)?

I know about an encounter on 28/29 July 1943 night between PT 203, 214 and 218 off Capo d'Orlando (Sicily north coast) and the Italian MS 21, 53, 65 and 66 which outrun the American ones damaging the PT 218 (more than 60 holes, with some casualties) without being hit.

Bye

EC

alross2 · Post by **alross2** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:43 pm

Gentlemen,

While this is supposedly a research-oriented forum, this thread seems to contain a lot of unsupported definitive statements and opinions, along with some obvious inaccuracies. Maybe we could approach things in a more substantiable manner?

Al Ross

Troy Tempest · Post by **Troy Tempest** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:07 pm

Hi alross2! In what way or what examples are you commenting about?

alross2 · Post by **alross2** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:30 pm

Generalderpanzertruppen wrote:Hi alross2! In what way or what examples are you commenting about?

Well, let's take some of the armament comments, for example. One has some schnellboote being armed with more than a dozen 20mm and 30mm weapons. From what source did that come? It is certainly not supported by any photographic or textual material in the more commonly available publications by Fock, Dailles-Labourdette, Williamson, Hummelchen, Groener, Krakow/Connelly, and others. Several state that the German boats were more heavily armed than the US boats. Again, photographic and textual material from the previously-mentioned sources, plus those by Buckley, Johnson, Chun, Morison & Polmar, Lambert & Ross, and others indicates otherwise. Based on these sources, typical gun armament of the German boats through S170 as placed in service included one or two single 20mm and several 7.9mm machineguns. Armament upgrades included various numbers of 20mm, 30mm, 37mm, and 40mm for later boats and some earlier boats.

Upon arrival in theatre, the US boats with the least gun armament carried two twin .50 cal and two 20mm. As the German boats were upgunned, so too were the US boats. There are photos in Johnson, for instance, of the Higgins boats of RON 30 and/or 31 with two 37mm M4 or M9 cannon mounted on the bow, along with the standard .50 and 20mm mounts. Chun has photos of PT 215 at Bastia mounting one 40mm, two 20mm, two twin .50s, and a couple .30s. Also in Chun, there are photos of PT 557, 558, and 559 (80' ELCOs at Bastia) mounting one 20mm forward, the usual twin .50s, and the quad 20mm THUNDERBOLT at the stern. 558 also mounts a 37mm forward. Their sisters in RON 29 mounted a single 40mm aft instead of the THUNDERBOLT.

Al Ross

Troy Tempest · Post by **Troy Tempest** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:27 pm

Hi Al, thanks for those references! Could you give one title about S-boats that you would recommend for persual? I couldn't buy all of them! The only books and video reference for S-boats that I have, and it may well be later in the war, show them with a quad 20mm and single 37mm cannons at the rear. The video stated that most of the bow mounted single 20mm cannons were deleted as they were too difficult to operate accurately while the S-boat is moving. Does this sound right to you?

Troy

Tiornu · Post by **Tiornu** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:20 pm

I found a source for my claim regarding PT-73's armament:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0176792/
Hee! Me so funny....
Whitley's book, German Coastal Forces of World War Two, is good (as are all the books in his series on German naval designs) and has the advantage of being in English. It is extremely difficult to find for purchase, so an inter-library loan is in order. Fock's Fast Fighting Boats is available in English an can be found selling at very high prices. His other books are in German. The Dailles-Labourdette book (the title is spelled "S-Boote," so you're sure to like it--see how funny I be?) has a very slick look, but I've heard unflatterng things about its content; Al may be able to comment specifically. The Groner section on S-boats is only in German. Unfortunately I know no source on the S-boats that's as detailed as Chun's book or Al's own work.

alross2 · Post by **alross2** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:51 pm

Generalderpanzertruppen wrote:Hi Al, thanks for those references! Could you give one title about S-boats that you would recommend for persual? I couldn't buy all of them! The only books and video reference for S-boats that I have, and it may well be later in the war, show them with a quad 20mm and single 37mm cannons at the rear. The video stated that most of the bow mounted single 20mm cannons were deleted as they were too difficult to operate accurately while the S-boat is moving. Does this sound right to you?

Troy

These books have very different foci, ranging from nothing but tech info to operational histories. Several are essentially picture books with little text. What's your primary interest?

As Richard (tiornu) mentioned, Mike Whitley's book is perhaps the most inclusive as it touches on both the technical and operational aspects, plus it also addresses other types (R, KS, minesweepers, tenders, etc).

Your mention of seeing the Flakvierling mounted on some of the boats in a video is interesting. Although it appears on the Lurssen drawings of the S-700 series boats and is mentioned as an alternative in several references, no one seems to be able to produce a photo. Do you remember the title of the video? I have a couple, including "Stukas of the Sea", but don't remember seeing the weapon in that one.

Al

ptdockyard · Post by **ptdockyard** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:57 pm

Al,
OK, I'm busted. I was too lazy to walk upsatirs and get "At Close Quarters." :oops:

The Sicily/Italy encounter was August 15/16 with PTs 205, 215 and 217 engaed in a running battle with two S-boats. These, according to Historie and Collections "S-boats at War" were S-151 class (no, I am not going upstairs again for that one). Most US accounts state the Germans fired 40mm guns at them but I think it is the slow rate of fire of the German 20mm versus the 20MM Oerlicons the US sailors were used to seeing.

E. Stafford's book "Subchaser" gives a great account of this battle as the author was hitch-hiking on one of the PTs and manned one of the twin .30cals. These were ounted on the front torpedo tubes. The armament fit is typical for the RON 15 boats photographed before the MkXIII torpedo racks were mounted. If any of the boats had 40mm guns one or both of the S-boats may have been late for breakfast.

Al, I have seen nothing of US boats (Higgens or Elco) in the Mediterranean mounting the M4 or M9 37mm. Odd since this is where the P-39 was used in Europe.

Dave

Erich · Post by **Erich** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:54 pm

Al :

Some of the Boots in the last weeks of fighting in the Baltic in 45 had the 2cm fourbarrels fitted.

there is one photo on page 71 of Siegfried Beyers volume # 2 Die Deutsche Kriegsmarine 1935-45.

E ~

alross2 · Post by **alross2** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:23 pm

ptdockyard wrote: I have seen nothing of US boats (Higgens or Elco) in the Mediterranean mounting the M4 or M9 37mm. Odd since this is where the P-39 was used in Europe.

Dave

On page 81 of Frank Johnson's United States PT-Boats of World War II In Action, there is a photo of PT459 and two sisters at Bastia showing a pair of 37mm on the bow. I've emailed a copy to you at your normal email.

Al

alross2 · Post by **alross2** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:24 pm

Erich wrote:Al :

Some of the Boots in the last weeks of fighting in the Baltic in 45 had the 2cm fourbarrels fitted.

there is one photo on page 71 of Siegfried Beyers volume # 2 Die Deutsche Kriegsmarine 1935-45.

E ~

Thanks, Erich. This is good to know. Can you scan that shot and email it?

Al

Erich · Post by **Erich** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:27 pm

Al I wish I could, sorry no scanner, also the Boot is covered with refugees during the retreat from the Baltic in 45

E ~

Enrico Cernuschi · Post by **Enrico Cernuschi** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:20 am

Hi Dave,

I confirm it's the forst time I know about a UN PT action on that night in Sicilian waters.
I'm puzzled they had to be German S boats, as the Italian motosiluranti were patrolling north of the Strait and the German ones south. As no Italian action is recorded that time are you sure those sailors were not firing against themselves (not the first time).

Bye

EC

ptdockyard · Post by **ptdockyard** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:24 pm

Jean-Philippe Dallies-Labourdette's book "S-Boote: German E-boats in Action 1939-1945" on page 89 lists the two German boats invoved in this action as S-153 and S-154.

Is there a good history of the MS boats out there? They seem to be left out in many histories in favor of the MAS boats. The PT histories list the Italian boats involved in the 28/29 July 1943 action as MAS boats.

Dave