My Ballot: FOR the RED, WHITE & BLACK

Einsamer_Wolf · Post by **Einsamer_Wolf** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:30 pm

SALUT!

The Dresden thread has drifted into why I am at least somewhat sympathetic to the German cause. Addressing this issue, I wrote this post, while promising to elaborate more in a new thread, to keep the Dresden thread on topic:

I am very sympathetic to German nationalism. Germany got a very raw deal. And it is no surprise to me why Germany followed Hitler. I do feel that had Germany prevailed, that would be the price France and Britain would (perhaps rightfully) pay for imposing such gross injustice on a proud people like the Germans.
BUt in addition, and I will expound on this with more detail in a new thread, I believe the rank and file German supported Hitler's regime because of a rightful distrust of liberal democracy as they were similarly compelled by a rigtheous crusade to destroy Soviet Communism. The writiings of Ernset Nolte explciate how this is so. I will write at length about this in a New Thread: Ballot Going to the Red, White, and Black. This is pertinent because, despite the horrors of the Holocaust, I think the direction that Europe and the West is headed is suicidal. People can now say and do whatever they want. MTV, The Viacom conglomerate, and Walt Disney Company all propogate messages that destroy values thousands of years old. Only a strong authoritarian regime is capable of combating influences like these. Men like Manstein, Stauffenberg, Guderian, Rommel all saw this. They quite correctly perceived the dangers of what liberal democracy would ultimately entail. As Guderain and another General who escapes me at the moment said while held captive by the Allied Victors, the problem was not with fascist, even Nazi ideology. Freedom and democracy are destructive. And there is something to be said for the inordinate influecne that the Jewish Lobby has (as evinced by how my government is bought and sold in terms of unreasonable support for the apartheid like regime in Israel)--though that certainly is no justification for a policy of genocide that overcompensates more than a flamethrower used as a match to light a cigareete by putting women and children in gas chambers. THe problem was with the particular leader, that Hitler and a small handful of his henchmen revealed massive moral and leadership deficiences. If only a more fortunate leader had taken control before things got way out of hand, say someone like Guderian or Manstein or Franco in Spain, autocracy alone would save Europe and the West from dissolution we are now subject to. I am not even saying that I am against the form of democractic republic in better times. I just believe that very specific conditions must be in place lest social chaos roam rampant. Only the strong arm and jackboot of Nazi-like authoritarianism, in my mind, can prove effective in neutralizing destrucitve elements that propagate reckless profligacy and abandon. More on this in the new post. Lets keep this focused on whatever else one wants to say about "Dresden Burning in the Night."

All I want to say in addition is look where things have headed since the fall of Berlin. We live in a pornographci culture. Some figures in the culture that demonstrate things have gone way to far include:

*Tatu--nymphish Russian duet that plays on the sex craze revolving around bi-sexual women.

*Related: greater phenomenon here: seems everybody but me has a slutty bisexual girlffriend. My younger sister who conned my family into paying for an uncredited film school in San Francisco that costs more than Harvard has certified to me that in my generation and younger is involved in rampant, hardcore promiscuity. More proof: Run the phrase "lost children of rockdale couny" through google. You should come across teh webpage for a Frontline documentary about a syphillis outbhreak among upper middle class teens and preteens as young as eleven and twelve. Extremely promiscuous behavior involving succesive and simultaneous sex partners is recounted in the investigation as to the origins of the outbreak. See also the movie Thirteen. Had Nazi Germany Survived, none of this would be in our face today, corrupting our youth.

* MTV--definitely related to phenomenon above. Again, only fascism seems capable of properly eradicating such elements.

* Max Hardcore, Ron Jeremy, Jenna Jameson are household names. There are features on the latter two on Entertainment tonight on early Saturday Evenings. While the same fate should await Jeremy, I am most adamant in asserting that the most prior of these ought to be tortured and mutillated beyond recognition. Fascist authoritarianism demonstrates the will and moral conviction sufficient to instigate that type of action. Conversely, Western democracy has utterly failed in destroying those elements so repugnant to values closest to me and countless others; advantage--fascism!

I care not to go on. The point being is that our liberal democracy has failed utterly and completely to take action and eradicate these other influences in the culture that destroy everything upon which any civilziation is based upon. Conversely, had Germany surived as a poltical entity, I believe the survivng Western democracies would not have the aversion to the sort of strong authoritarianism that could adequately quell these things. In this way, Post Hitler Nazi Germany would have been a very benign influence on the Western World
I want to say, as I have before, that I do not regard the application of fascist-Nazi ideology to be ideal, at least as it was opposed historically as opposed to theoretically. But given how the West allowed the USSR to run rampant all over Eastern Europe, coupled with how this is precisely what the rank and file German was fighting against--and given that none of these influences that destroy values thousands of years old are even remotely addressed by the ruling system--my ballot is going not to the Red, White, and Blue--but to the Red, White, and Black! THough I do submit this ballot with some anguish, I do so with increasingly less reluctance. After all, could you imagine what the Nazis would do about MTV, or Larry Flint? I can--and I think the rank and file German, as well as men like Manstein, Guderian, even Rommel and Stauffenberg understood this as well. And that is why my ballot goes to men like these who fought for the Red, White, and Black.

Einsamer Wolf

Freiritter · Post by **Freiritter** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:35 pm

EW,

I would suggest that you read a book by an Austrian economist named F.A. Hayek. The title is: " The Road to Serfdom ". This was published in 1944, after the author had seen first hand what such an authoritarian system produces. When governments take a moral stance, bad things happen. Such a regimented society is no place to live. Also, morality is best left to the individual, not to be forced upon one by the outside world.

Cordially,

Freiritter

Einsamer_Wolf · Post by **Einsamer_Wolf** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:45 pm

Perhaps under normal circumstances. But at some point things reach a state of emergency. If things came to a point where little girls are shown having sex with horses on daytime television, would you then advocate government action?

EW

Hound of Ill Omen · Post by **Hound of Ill Omen** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:47 pm

EW,

What you have failed to realise is that there were a great many things that the Nazi's were NOT good at and would make life intolerable.

Take yourself for instance, lets just assume for the purpose of this experiment, that you are a chronic masturbator. The Nazi party could just one day pass a law that all chronic masturbators must go to the camps, as well as model train enthusiasts, Gardeners, Elevator repairmen, munchkins, pro wrestlers and window cleaners.

Yeah sure, some things were good in the Reich, but there was much that was evil and we are better off (in many ways) without it.

Einsamer_Wolf · Post by **Einsamer_Wolf** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 3:11 pm

Hound--

No offense but that post is ridiculous. Do you realy think this is a realistic plausibility-that model train enthusiasts and people who masturbate (which anyone who knows anything about human sexuality knows that practically every man who is not only wholly impotent and about 80% plus women masturbate). I realize this position I am taking of late is controversial. I posted it in hopes someone could talk me out of it. But to suggest that the Nazis would single out model train enthusiasts? Laughable. THat tehy would send Hitler youth to the camps upon puberty? What a joke! Please try again.

Einsamer Wolf

PS: Actually--equating the morass of vulgarity I recount in my original post to people who masturbate (something completly natural and healthy, unlike what I relate in my post) or people who like model trains really trivializes my concerns. In this way I am tempted to take it as an insult.
I think the issues I bring up are of dire importance to the future of the West. Go to rotten.com. Then go to the biographies section. Pick the pornogrpaher file, and selecet the biography on Max Hardcore. You tell me if that filth is in anyway comparable to a grandfather and grandson enjoying the hobby of model trains for example, as my grandfather and I did. Or how about pubescent girls engaging in group sex, as recounted in the document Lost Children of Rockdale County and fictionalized in the Movie Thirteen. Your comment about sending people who masturbate--which as this forum is vritually all men means everyone here--implies that I am uptight about sex. I am not at all. HUman sexuality is a wonderful thing of tantamount importance human life. What I indict in my ballot is something far different. The distinction should be obivous. If not, we can go from there.

EW

Stefan · Post by **Stefan** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:34 pm

Matthäus, Kapitel 5, Vers 3.

Jez · Post by **Jez** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:42 pm

Freiritter wrote,

I would suggest that you read a book by an Austrian economist named F.A. Hayek. The title is: " The Road to Serfdom ". This was published in 1944, after the author had seen first hand what such an authoritarian system produces. When governments take a moral stance, bad things happen. Such a regimented society is no place to live. Also, morality is best left to the individual, not to be forced upon one by the outside world.

When in 1944 exactly did he write this? I'm sure pen pushers in Vienna etc could see the writing on the future Berlin wall, especially after June 1944, with the Normandy landings and Operation Bagration.

Also, how can such a tyranical government of Nazi controlled Austria have let some-one not only say such things and not whisk him and his family to be exterminated but publish it in a book?

Whats going on here?

Please break down and explain Freiritter.

Regards, Jez

Christian · Post by **Christian** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:04 pm

Matthäus, Kapitel 5, Vers 3.

Cheers,

Christian

Achilles · Post by **Achilles** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 2:47 am

When in 1944 exactly did he write this? I'm sure pen pushers in Vienna etc could see the writing on the future Berlin wall, especially after June 1944, with the Normandy landings and Operation Bagration.

Also, how can such a tyranical government of Nazi controlled Austria have let some-one not only say such things and not whisk him and his family to be exterminated but publish it in a book?

Whats going on here?

Just because Hayek was Austrian doesn't mean he was still in Austria...he was living in London where he was a lecturer at LSE. It's not a treatise on the Nazi state as such rather an examination of dictatorship controlled economic policies of the 1930s including the Nazis.

Jez · Post by **Jez** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:14 am

Bollocks!

Freiritter · Post by **Freiritter** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:57 am

In accordance with Jez's request:

I read this book recently in an attempt to understand fascist/socialist/communist social systems. In one part of the book, the argument that such a governmental system need not be run by the worst sort of people and would be a more moral way of life than a liberal democracy was examined. By the arguments that Hayek made in that chapter, and from what I had heard previously, such a system would reduce morals and render it's citizens into mere compliance with state directives. I intended to use this reference in order to sway Einsamer Wolf from such a dangerous notion. Hayek had left Austria sometime before the beginning of the war. He settled in Great Britain and saw the same forces at work in Britain that had brought about National Socialism in Germany. ( From his own opinion. ) He began writing this book in the early days of WWII, while working for the British government. (?) He finally published in 1944.

Cordially,

Freiritter

Jez · Post by **Jez** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:56 am

The thing is though, Facism in Italy had worked.

Franco's own brand of Neo-Facism/Nationalism worked.

Dare i say it, if Hitler hadnt have been hell bent on aquiring a living space that would sustain the German population, thus rendering any future Naval blocades useless, could Facism in Germany worked? E.g. Not as much emphasis on re-armament and sustainable economic investment.

This probably wouldnt have happened with the USSR wanting to sieze the Baltic states, Finland, Moldovia, the Eastern part of Poland and ultimately the Bosforus Straits in the late Thirties onwards.

This guy published a book in 1944 about the ills of Facism and that it was doomed to failure. Well it was in 1944 all right.

Can you find out when in 1944 it was published?

Cheers, Jez

Achilles · Post by **Achilles** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:42 pm

I would seriously argue that economic fascism did NOT work in Italy...the brief boost in the economy was created by armaments programmes i.e. that fantastic navy that never got used and government inspired programmes - the Battle for Grain, the Battle for Food. But these government inspired programmes are not viable over the long term and by 1939 the Italian economy was going the same way as every other totalitarian economy has gone - Nazi Germany, Communist Soviet Union, China etc They become inefficient and wasteful - there's no room for initiative or entrepreneurs and the workforce become demotivated.

A quick Google serach turned up this quote (Seldon Richman) which I think sums it up:

"As World War II approached, the signs of fascism's failure in Italy were palpable: per capita private consumption had dropped to below 1929 levels, and Italian industrial production between 1929 and 1939 had increased by only 15 percent, lower than the rates for other Western European countries. Labor productivity was low and production costs were uncompetitive. The fault lay in the shift of economic decision-making from entrepreneurs to government bureaucrats, and in the allocation of resources by decree rather than by free markets. Mussolini designed his system to cater to the needs of the state, not of consumers. In the end, it served neither."

As for the German experience - German economists were telling Hitler the conomy was heading for meltdown as early as 1936/37. The only way it could be kept going was expansion into other countries and the exploitation of their resources and populations.

Einsamer_Wolf · Post by **Einsamer_Wolf** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:45 pm

Freiritter--

You did not answer my question....

EW

Einsamer_Wolf · Post by **Einsamer_Wolf** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 2:00 pm

Some respondents still ahve not explained how Western democracy as it is applied can address the concerns I raised in my origianl post. To redirect the thread to this end, I have copied a response I just submitted in another thread. As I indicate in this passage, I defy anyone to take the "EW Challenge" and explain to me how modern liberal democracies can even address these questions. I am leaving out issues of multiculturalism, massive demographic chagnes from reckless immigration policies, and whatever else I indict the ruling system for. I am just focusing, for now, on questions strictly pertaining to the issue of Culture, Morals, and Values. Again--does anybody take the EW Challenge?

Einsamer Wolf

Sid--

The premise behind the first question is false. Why? Because the United Kingdom would not have been able to defeat Germany but for the burden the Eastern Front imposed. To me, the fact that the Western Allies prevailed is not in itself proof that their way of doing things is more desirable. I want you to take a look at my new thread: My Ballot--FOR the RED, WHITE, & BLACK. Once you have, take the EW challenge. Specifically, watch the movie thirteen. Peruse the website for the Frontline documentary on the lost children of Rockdale County:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/georgia/

Then go to rotten.com. Pull up the biogrpahy section, and access the file on pornographers. Read the profile on Maxhardcore. Once you have taken this challenge, I want you to explain to me, in the Ballot thread, how liberal democracy can adequately address these and other problems. As I indciated before, ultimately I believe that liberal demoracy is the preferred methid of government. But a civiliazation must maintain a certain level of advancement, a number of criteria, for democracy to work. I believe that the conditons prerequisite for a flourishing democracy are no longer met. Europe and the West are in a state of cultural emergency. Only the strong-arm and jackboot of fascist like authoritarianism, in my mind, can suitably eradicate these elements so destructive to the highest values. After taking the EW challenge in reviewing these materials, I hope to see how you can convince me otherwise.

Einsamer Wolf

PS--as to the second question, I can only answer that Nazi Germany and USSR were embroiled for the same reason that I am increasingly sympathethic to the German cause: Germany had taken upon herslef the most righteous crusade to eradicate Soviet communism from the face of the Earth. This was very much to her credit, as it is a principal reasoon why I believe the West was on the wrong side.