What are exactly are the diffrence betweeen the two SS branches if they wre seperate branhes in the SS, was one more elite then the other, any help on the subject would be most helpful.
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Regular SS vs. Waffen-SS
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darkertomcat
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darkertomcat
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Debica Fusilier
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darkertomcat
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Paul Hanson
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The 6 branches of the SS
Let's try for a little information instead of opinions on the branches of the SS:
The Allegemeine-SS or General-SS was originally formed in 1923 to be a unit completely loyal to Hitler, unlike the SA who were loyal to their leaders. By the outbreak of the war the Allgemeine-SS had grown to around 240,000 part-time members who purpose was to provide a security reserve in case of internal strife.
In 1933 small detachments of SS men were recruited and trained in police and local security duties. Small organized groups of SS were scattered around the country and some Districts had units of 100 men known as "Headquarters Guards". These were trained and known as "Special Detachments"; later renamed "Barracked Centuries". When these units reached company strength they were called "Political Readiness Detachments" Three of these Detachments were of battalion size and would become the core of the SS-Verfüngungstruppe-SS except for the 3rd which became the guard battalion at the Buchenwald concentration camp and later the core of the SS-Totenkopfverbände. With growth as a reward after June 30th, 1934; Hitler’s bodyguard unit, LAH, and two new units, Deutschland and Germania, were formed of regimental size. These later became the nucleus of the Waffen-SS.
At the same time the 3rd branch of the SS was being formed: the SS-Totenkopfverbände. The various concentration camps all had guard units that were orginally part of the Allgemeine-SS. They were removed from that umbrella and merged into 5 guard battailions. In 1936 they were formed into the SS-Totenkopfverbände. In 1939 the Totenkopf Division was formed at Dachau and from the point on Theodor Eicke and his Division had nothing more to do with guarding prison camps. The guard duties were taken over by TotenkopfSturmbann.
The SD under Heydrich was formed in 1931 and as soon as it gained power after 1933 began taking control of the all the police authorities in German, especially the Gestapo, and began enhancing it’s role as the sole authority for security in the Reich and occupied countries.
At the outbreak of the War, the last branches of the SS were formed. The SS-VT became the Waffen-SS and small units were formed in occupied countries as the Germanishe-SS. Many of these were later formed into small units of the Waffen-SS.
This is condensed from Mollo's 7 volume set on the SS.
As you can see all were armed. And if the Totenkopfverbände were brutal then one "elite" SS Panzer unit was also, because the Totenkopf Panzer-Division was formed from the SS-TV.
PH
The Allegemeine-SS or General-SS was originally formed in 1923 to be a unit completely loyal to Hitler, unlike the SA who were loyal to their leaders. By the outbreak of the war the Allgemeine-SS had grown to around 240,000 part-time members who purpose was to provide a security reserve in case of internal strife.
In 1933 small detachments of SS men were recruited and trained in police and local security duties. Small organized groups of SS were scattered around the country and some Districts had units of 100 men known as "Headquarters Guards". These were trained and known as "Special Detachments"; later renamed "Barracked Centuries". When these units reached company strength they were called "Political Readiness Detachments" Three of these Detachments were of battalion size and would become the core of the SS-Verfüngungstruppe-SS except for the 3rd which became the guard battalion at the Buchenwald concentration camp and later the core of the SS-Totenkopfverbände. With growth as a reward after June 30th, 1934; Hitler’s bodyguard unit, LAH, and two new units, Deutschland and Germania, were formed of regimental size. These later became the nucleus of the Waffen-SS.
At the same time the 3rd branch of the SS was being formed: the SS-Totenkopfverbände. The various concentration camps all had guard units that were orginally part of the Allgemeine-SS. They were removed from that umbrella and merged into 5 guard battailions. In 1936 they were formed into the SS-Totenkopfverbände. In 1939 the Totenkopf Division was formed at Dachau and from the point on Theodor Eicke and his Division had nothing more to do with guarding prison camps. The guard duties were taken over by TotenkopfSturmbann.
The SD under Heydrich was formed in 1931 and as soon as it gained power after 1933 began taking control of the all the police authorities in German, especially the Gestapo, and began enhancing it’s role as the sole authority for security in the Reich and occupied countries.
At the outbreak of the War, the last branches of the SS were formed. The SS-VT became the Waffen-SS and small units were formed in occupied countries as the Germanishe-SS. Many of these were later formed into small units of the Waffen-SS.
This is condensed from Mollo's 7 volume set on the SS.
As you can see all were armed. And if the Totenkopfverbände were brutal then one "elite" SS Panzer unit was also, because the Totenkopf Panzer-Division was formed from the SS-TV.
PH
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TH Albright
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Just a minor correction to Paul's excellent summary...the 3rd battalion of the original SS Politische Bereitschafen, known as SS-Sonderkommando 3, became SS-Wachtruppe Sachsen and also provided two companies to SS-Wachtruppe "Elbe". Both of these SS-Wachtruppen were absorbed into Eicke's growing coterie of concentration camp guard units...SS-Wachtruppe Sachsen provided guard details for KL Sachsenburg and SS-Wachtruppe "Elbe" provided guard units for KL Lichtenberg. When KL Sachsenberg closed down in 1937, SS-Totenkopfverbande "Sachsen" provided the cadre for SS-TV "Thuringen" at the new Buchenwald camp in Weimar. Just a note...the original SS-Sonderkommando 3 had provide guards for KL Sachsenberg prior to being incorporated into the SS-TV. So while the first two battalions of the fledgling SS-VT were solely trained as military units (albeit for the purpose of protecting the Nazi regime from internal enemies), the third battalion were "jailors" connected to the KL system from the get go; also protecting the regime from internal "enemies", this time behind the wire. After 1935, however, the SS-VT battalions did go into a different. more traditionally military direction under Paul Hausser and Felix Steiner, while Eicke's SS-TV evolved into the murkier "political soldiers" trained to combat the "...enemy behind the wire" and, later, beyond the borders of the Reich. However, the personnel base for both the SS-TV and SS-VT were shared through the SS Cadet School system and Eicke increasingly added to his command structure officers transferred from the SS-VT in order to build the military capabilities of the SS-TV.
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Sebastian Pye
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Paul Hanson
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Rotation between SS-Panzer-Division Totenkopf
Thanks for the added info, TH.
Sebastian, you've stated this before, contrary to Mollo's books and others, without a shred of proof. How about some documentation to back up this assertion. I feel the loss of combat experience just to guard a prison camp is not something the Waffen-SS could afford and it's doubtful to me that it occured. I have read that guard duty was used as a disciplinary punishment but not as standard rotation for experienced fighting men. Again, if you have the proof, share it; it would be an important piece of information.
PH
Sebastian, you've stated this before, contrary to Mollo's books and others, without a shred of proof. How about some documentation to back up this assertion. I feel the loss of combat experience just to guard a prison camp is not something the Waffen-SS could afford and it's doubtful to me that it occured. I have read that guard duty was used as a disciplinary punishment but not as standard rotation for experienced fighting men. Again, if you have the proof, share it; it would be an important piece of information.
PH
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Rob - WSSOB
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W-SS & KZ system
Quoting George Stein's book "The Waffen-SS," the chapter "The Tarnished Shield"
"...Nevertheless, there was a continual exchange of personnel between the field units of the Waffen-SS and the concentration camp service throughout the war. Until the personnel records of the SS are thoroughly analyzed, the extent of this practice can only be estimated. Rudolf Höss, the commandant of Auschwicz from May 1940 until December 1943, recalled after the war that during his tenure approximately 2,500 members of his staff were posted to field units of the Waffen-SS and replaced by others. The commandant of the smaller Sachsenhausen camp estimated about 1,500 of his guards were similarily transferred between August 1942 and May 1945. In the last months of the war large numbers of concentration-camp guards, many of whom had previously been rejected as unfit for combat, were redrafted into the field divisions of the Waffen-SS...Where a camp was near a Waffen-SS installation, recruits or personnel in training were also employed as guards in the later part of the war. Reitlinger tells of the British general who, in April 1945, saw German guards at Belsen 'shooting indiscriminately among the mob of gibbering skeletons.' The guards turned out to be Volksdeutsche recruits from Hungary who had been training at a nearby Waffen-SS panzergrenadier school."
Stein then goes onto to discuss the transfer of officers from KZ to W-SS unit and vice-versa. He mentions that competent field commanders obviously would be kept in front line units but other officers, either wounded or unfit (or incompetent) for front line duty would be transferred to the KZ system.
French MacLean compiled the SS biographical data of 950+ officers in the KZ system into a book called "The Camp Men". Analyzing the data, MacLean determined that 43% of the SS officers in the KZ system served at one point or another in the Waffen-SS, including:
SS-Hauptsturmführer Josef Mengele - 5th SS "Viking" division 1942, Auschwitz 1943-45.
SS-Hauptsturmführer Dr. Oskar Dienstbach - served at Mauthausen and Flossenbürg in 1941, surgeon for the recon battalion of "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" in 1942, also served at Auschwicz in 1942 and Dora in 1945.
SS-Obersturnführer Herbert Dillman, served in "Freiwilligen Legion Norwegen" 1942, then at Natzweiler 1943-45.
SS-Sturmbannführer Egon Zill - served in KZ Natzweiler & Flossenbürg 1942-43, transferred to 7th SS, 13th SS, 23rd SS and possibly 31st SS 1943-45.
And so on.
Wolfgang Sofky in his book "The Order of Terror: The Concentration Camp" discusses the relationship between the SS-TV and the KZ system and the W-SS and the KZ system in his chapter "The SS Personnel":
"...Along with the SS-VT, the concentration camps contained the germ of the Waffen-SS. The guard service was an integral component of training; its constant confrontation with the "internal enemy" provided a preparatory exercize for its later deployment as a military intervention unit.
However, only a fraction of the units had anything to do with the daily service operations in the camps. At the end of 1937, when there were 4,833 men in the Death's Head units, only 33 of the 216 officers were appointed as commandants or camp leaders. At this point there were 1,621 stationed at Dachau, 1,617 at Buchenwald, and 1,066 at Sachsenhausen. However, the permanent staff at each of these camps was only about 110 men...As a rule, the battalions were rotated, serving three-week stints on sentry duty; the rest of the time was set aside for political and military training.
...Even after separation of the Death's Head regiments from the KZ Inspektion, the concentration camps remained part of the Waffen-SS. Transfers of guard personnel were also handled through the command office of the Waffen-SS...Both the guards units and members of the commandant staffs wore the uniform of the Waffen-SS.
This bureaucratic interlinkage permitted a smooth exchange of personnel between the field units and the camp formations. Camp personnel was transferred to the front to replace the losses of the Totenkopf division. In 1941, the home administration of the division was set up at Dachau. Wounded soldiers and incompetent troop leaders were seconded to the camps. Transfers in both directions as a form of punishment were not uncommon. The total number of men rotated between the field units and the camps is estimated at some 10,000."
"...Nevertheless, there was a continual exchange of personnel between the field units of the Waffen-SS and the concentration camp service throughout the war. Until the personnel records of the SS are thoroughly analyzed, the extent of this practice can only be estimated. Rudolf Höss, the commandant of Auschwicz from May 1940 until December 1943, recalled after the war that during his tenure approximately 2,500 members of his staff were posted to field units of the Waffen-SS and replaced by others. The commandant of the smaller Sachsenhausen camp estimated about 1,500 of his guards were similarily transferred between August 1942 and May 1945. In the last months of the war large numbers of concentration-camp guards, many of whom had previously been rejected as unfit for combat, were redrafted into the field divisions of the Waffen-SS...Where a camp was near a Waffen-SS installation, recruits or personnel in training were also employed as guards in the later part of the war. Reitlinger tells of the British general who, in April 1945, saw German guards at Belsen 'shooting indiscriminately among the mob of gibbering skeletons.' The guards turned out to be Volksdeutsche recruits from Hungary who had been training at a nearby Waffen-SS panzergrenadier school."
Stein then goes onto to discuss the transfer of officers from KZ to W-SS unit and vice-versa. He mentions that competent field commanders obviously would be kept in front line units but other officers, either wounded or unfit (or incompetent) for front line duty would be transferred to the KZ system.
French MacLean compiled the SS biographical data of 950+ officers in the KZ system into a book called "The Camp Men". Analyzing the data, MacLean determined that 43% of the SS officers in the KZ system served at one point or another in the Waffen-SS, including:
SS-Hauptsturmführer Josef Mengele - 5th SS "Viking" division 1942, Auschwitz 1943-45.
SS-Hauptsturmführer Dr. Oskar Dienstbach - served at Mauthausen and Flossenbürg in 1941, surgeon for the recon battalion of "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" in 1942, also served at Auschwicz in 1942 and Dora in 1945.
SS-Obersturnführer Herbert Dillman, served in "Freiwilligen Legion Norwegen" 1942, then at Natzweiler 1943-45.
SS-Sturmbannführer Egon Zill - served in KZ Natzweiler & Flossenbürg 1942-43, transferred to 7th SS, 13th SS, 23rd SS and possibly 31st SS 1943-45.
And so on.
Wolfgang Sofky in his book "The Order of Terror: The Concentration Camp" discusses the relationship between the SS-TV and the KZ system and the W-SS and the KZ system in his chapter "The SS Personnel":
"...Along with the SS-VT, the concentration camps contained the germ of the Waffen-SS. The guard service was an integral component of training; its constant confrontation with the "internal enemy" provided a preparatory exercize for its later deployment as a military intervention unit.
However, only a fraction of the units had anything to do with the daily service operations in the camps. At the end of 1937, when there were 4,833 men in the Death's Head units, only 33 of the 216 officers were appointed as commandants or camp leaders. At this point there were 1,621 stationed at Dachau, 1,617 at Buchenwald, and 1,066 at Sachsenhausen. However, the permanent staff at each of these camps was only about 110 men...As a rule, the battalions were rotated, serving three-week stints on sentry duty; the rest of the time was set aside for political and military training.
...Even after separation of the Death's Head regiments from the KZ Inspektion, the concentration camps remained part of the Waffen-SS. Transfers of guard personnel were also handled through the command office of the Waffen-SS...Both the guards units and members of the commandant staffs wore the uniform of the Waffen-SS.
This bureaucratic interlinkage permitted a smooth exchange of personnel between the field units and the camp formations. Camp personnel was transferred to the front to replace the losses of the Totenkopf division. In 1941, the home administration of the division was set up at Dachau. Wounded soldiers and incompetent troop leaders were seconded to the camps. Transfers in both directions as a form of punishment were not uncommon. The total number of men rotated between the field units and the camps is estimated at some 10,000."
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TH Albright
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Great post Rob..Sofsky's book remains a definitive study of the camps, both sociologically and historically.
Other officers of note who served on both wartime camp staffs (thus being integral to the operations of the camp and the extermination programs/exploitation of slave labor) and frontline W-SS units..
Richard Baer (Kommandant of Auschwitz I, WVHA staff and company commander in "Totenkopf" division)
Johannes Hassebroek (Kommandant of Gross-Rosen and company commander in "Totenkopf" division supply troops and company commander in the 9.SS Infanterie Regiment)
Friedrich Hartjenstein (Kommandant of Auschwitz II-Birkenau and holding various command posts in "Totenkopf" -- company/battalion commander and supply troops commander)
Paul-Werner Hoppe (Kommandant of Stuthoff and company commander/division staff of "Totenkopf")
Karl Kunstler (Kommandant of Flossenburg and supply officer for "Prinz Eugen")
Otto Foerschner (Kommandant of Dora and regiment Westland of "Wiking")
Anton Streitwieser (Shutzhaftlagerfuhrer of Mauthausen and "Wiking")
Michael Sand (Administrative leader of Sachsenhausen and Mauthausen, IVa of reconn battalion of "Frundsberg" and "GvB")
Willi-Klaus Rinck (Administrative Dept of Neuengamme and IVa of II/Westland of "Wiking" and Wirschaft Battalion 5 of "Wiking")
Willi Rieck (Auschwitz; Senior Food Clerk and IVa of SS Frei. Gd Reg. 33 of the 15 SS Division)
Michael Redwitz (Shutzhaftlagerfuhrer Dachau and I SS Pz Korps Staff)
Other officers of note who served on both wartime camp staffs (thus being integral to the operations of the camp and the extermination programs/exploitation of slave labor) and frontline W-SS units..
Richard Baer (Kommandant of Auschwitz I, WVHA staff and company commander in "Totenkopf" division)
Johannes Hassebroek (Kommandant of Gross-Rosen and company commander in "Totenkopf" division supply troops and company commander in the 9.SS Infanterie Regiment)
Friedrich Hartjenstein (Kommandant of Auschwitz II-Birkenau and holding various command posts in "Totenkopf" -- company/battalion commander and supply troops commander)
Paul-Werner Hoppe (Kommandant of Stuthoff and company commander/division staff of "Totenkopf")
Karl Kunstler (Kommandant of Flossenburg and supply officer for "Prinz Eugen")
Otto Foerschner (Kommandant of Dora and regiment Westland of "Wiking")
Anton Streitwieser (Shutzhaftlagerfuhrer of Mauthausen and "Wiking")
Michael Sand (Administrative leader of Sachsenhausen and Mauthausen, IVa of reconn battalion of "Frundsberg" and "GvB")
Willi-Klaus Rinck (Administrative Dept of Neuengamme and IVa of II/Westland of "Wiking" and Wirschaft Battalion 5 of "Wiking")
Willi Rieck (Auschwitz; Senior Food Clerk and IVa of SS Frei. Gd Reg. 33 of the 15 SS Division)
Michael Redwitz (Shutzhaftlagerfuhrer Dachau and I SS Pz Korps Staff)