Post war German Vehicle use

[Tom Houlihan]

Wheels, carriages, and all!

[phylo_roadking]

Ahem...shells too by any chance?

I once knew a guy who tried to bring an M1 carbine into Ulster BY MAIL ORDER during the Troubles...ONE PIECE AT A TIME OVER THREE YEARS.....he left the firing pin to last, and when IT arrived, the Police kindly delivered it and removed him! LMAO

[big_buddha]

Going back to that pic of the Stug in the Israeli Museum, here's some more info, I knew I'd seen that pink and yellow Charioteer before, must have been captured from Jordan or Lebanon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Char ... trun-2.jpg

FV 4101 Charioteer tank destroyer in Yad la-Shiryon Museum, Israel. 2005.

FV 4101 Charioteer

In the early 1950s, in an attempt to give extra firepower to the units of the Royal Armoured Corps, some Cromwells received a 20 pounder gun (the same as the Centurion) in a new turret. The resulting vehicle was designated FV 4101 Charioteer tank destroyer. About 200 units were converted by Robinson and Kershaw Ltd in Cheshire. In practice the Charioteer was used by British Territorial units only and during mid and late 1950s most of the vehicles were sold to Austria, Finland and Jordan:

Austria purchased some 80 vehicles.

Finland had bought 38 "Charioteer Mk VII Model B" in total by 1960 and they remained in use until 1979.

Jordan equipped two squadrons (24 vehicles) of their 3rd Tank Regiment in 1954. Some of the Jordanian Charioteers were sold to Lebanon. Several of those were used by the PLO against Israeli forces in Southern Lebanon during the Operation Litani (1978).


Shame the Brits didn't have a few hundred Charioteers during the war, they would have been very effective against Tigers and Panthers, the 20 pounder outperformed any German tank gun by far and the mobility of the Cromwell, even with the big heavy turret was great.


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[phylo_roadking]

Yep, after all the Centurion was basically only a stretched Comet chassis, which was an altered Cromwell one. The British had a horrible habit of perfecting hull and turret designs....but on entirely separate vehicles!!! And not being able to combine them for many years.

I've been VERY suprised over the last few years at the money and time the British spent on wasted tank design; you'd be amazed how many one-offs and failures were designed and constructed....taking SO long that each time the end result was uselessly obsolete and it was time to start again! There are complete tank marques that were produced and so hopelessly useless by the time they rolled that they were relegated to training vehicles...or just put in store

If I had the time or know-how I'd love to put together a BRITISH tank site along the lines of Achtung Panzer....! but it would take up two or three times the web space!


On this point - can anyone tell me if there are ANY accounts of the Conqueror tank ever seeing combat in late 1945??? I know it was ready for service in very late March, and crews were converting; did any ever fire a shot in anger?

phylo

[big_buddha]

The conqueror prototype didn't run until 1952! Definitely didn't see any action in WWII.

A45 Universal Tank (FV201)

Shortly after development began on the A41 Heavy Cruiser (Centurion), the British drew up a specification for what was known as the ‘Universal’ Tank. The FV201 was to be the basis for this ‘universal’ tank with one basic hull design being adapted to suit a variety of roles. The complete series of vehicles was to be as follows:

FV201 Universal Tank (20 pounder gun)
FV202 AVR(T) (With Centurion type turret mounting a demolition gun. Intended to tow an AVRE trailer. Cancelled in favour of FV215A.)
FV203 AVR(L)
FV204 Universal Flail
FV205 SP Medium Anti-Tank
FV206 SP Medium Artillery
FV207 SP Heavy Artillery (152mm)
FV208 Universal Brigelayer (Bridge design used in FV4002 Centurion Mk 5 Bridgelayer )
FV209 Universal ARV
FV210 Heavy Artillery Tractor
FV211 Medium Artillery Tractor
FV212 Assault Personnel Carrier
FV213 SP Medium Artillery
FV214 Conqueror Heavy Gun Tank
FV215a Heavy AVRE
FV215b Heavy Anti-Tank (Conqueror based 180mm SP-AT)
FV216 Mine Flail
FV217 SP 120 Medium Anti-Tank (Conqueror based)
FV219 ARV Mk I
FV221 Medium Gun Tank Caernarvon
FV222 ARV Mk II
FV223 ARK

and

The FV221 Caernarvon Medium Tank was the troop trials vehicle introduced ahead of the FV214 Conqueror Heavy Gun Tank. It comprised a modified Conqueror Mk-1 hull and a standard Centurion 20 Pdr gun turret. A total of 21 were produced and some were eventually reworked many years later into the Conqueror Mk-2/1/H. One interesting point is that in 1954 Caernarvon 07 BA 70 (less turret) became the first AFV in the world to be fitted with a Gas-turbine. See the book below for the full story!

Despite its' size and weight, Conqueror was to be more mobile than Centurion due to low ground pressure from its' very wide tracks, and massive power from the fuel injected Meteor engine. Across rough ground Conqueror was faster! Caernarvon however was faster still as it was fitted with the lighter Centurion turret. Shock absorbers were fitted to the front and rear suspension units to dampen the ride.

The concept of the Universal Tank underwent some radical changes before any machines appeared in the hands of troops.
A proposed infantry tank A45 to parallel the cruiser A41 was under design at the end of the war, and this was selected to as the basis for FV201, to be the the 21-pounder gun Universal tank.
In order to make it suitable for all the roles required of such a machine,a number of alterations were made to the basic design.

They included provision for a hull-gunner and Besa Machine Gun.
This was later eliminated in favour of a Besa MG remotely
controlled in a track guard box.A thicker glacis plate and roof increased ammunition stowage for 74 rounds of 20-pounder.
New access hatches, and improved ventilation and heating.

The Rolls Royce Meteor engine used petrol injection to give 750 B.H.P. and the Merritt-Brown Transmission was located in a a power compartment at the back of the tank.A modified Horstman suspension like that used on the A41 was fitted with steel rimmed resilient wheels,the normal rubber tyres having failed under load. 32" wide tracks were used, to cut down ground pressure.

The wooden mock-up was ready in June 1947 and the first prototype running in October 1948.After that, troubles really began with the discovery that the Gun Tank in the DD roll could not be used from the new LCT Mk8,just completed and coming into service.Similarly,the bridgelayer would have been too high for this craft.

In 1949 it was decided that FV201 might not be a match for current Soviet Heavy tanks and in any case development costs for other variants were likely to be too much for the available money.As we have seen, A45/FV201 was then shelved and the Centurion was chosen to become the Universal Tank.But the urgent need for a tank to take on the JS3 remained.It was therefore decided to revise the FV201, to mount an American 120mm gun and call the result Conqueror (FV214).

To gain experience with hull and running gear, a Centurion 3 turret (20-pdr gun) was mounted on an FV214 hull,under the name Caernarvon FV221.The first pilot Conqueror was running in 1952 and twenty more were in BAOR For troop trials in 1955. There was comparatively little difference between the hulls of Conqueror and FV201/221. The engine had been modified to
produce 810 B.H.P., but the extra space needed for the larger
ammunition, (For the first time in British Tank History, The case and projectile were separate) meant that no hull gunner could be carried.

The turret was of better shape than Centurion's and the commander had a cupola which virtually made a seperate turret at the back of the main one.He had a cross-cupola rangefinder and by an override control could lay the main armament on any target he selected.Having done this, it was possible to leave the gunner to finish that particular action while the commander laid his cupola sight on afresh target he could then swing the main turret to the new lay at any desired moment.This system could
be made to work well, and it was a brilliant concept but the installation was never designed for maintenance under field conditions.

For the first time in the RAC a tank commander could not know what was happening in the main turret.In Conqueror 2, the system was extensively modified.Conqueror had a mechanical ejector through the turret wall, to remove spent cases.No Smoke or HE ammunition was provided for the gun and the performance of the HESH ammunition when used if HE was required was disappointing.Only 7 degrees of depression could be got
on the gun so taking up fire positions was sometimes difficult.

Conqueror was much bigger than anything previously handled by the RAC but despite some awkward features users who took pains to master it were well rewarded.About180 machines were produced.Having progressed in design from an Infantry to a universal tank Conqueror spent all of it's service as a Tank Destroyer.






SPECS,

Main Armament:120mm L1
Supplementary Armament:2 .30 in Machine Guns
Ammunition:35 Rounds 120mm
7500rds .30
Crew:Commander, Gunner, loader & driver

Engine & Transmission,

Engine:Rolls-Royce M120 Fuel Injection
Power/weight ratio:12.5 hp/ton
Transmission:Merrit Brown Z52

Key Dimensions,

Armour:Max. 200mm
Side:110mm
Min:20mm
Weight:65 Tons
Length:39 ft
Width:13 ft 1 in
Height:10 ft 4.5 in
Track Width:31 in

Suspension & Performance,

Incline:35 degrees
Trench crossimg:11 ft
Verticle Step:36 inch
Suspension type:Horstmann
Road Wheels:20 inch diameter
Ground pressure:12 p.s.i.
Max. Speed:21.3 mph
Range:100 miles road
65 miles cross country

[Gladius]

I'm new in the forum, so... Hello to all!

Some comments about the spanish Panzers and StuGs...

Spain took deivery of an unspecified number of PzIV Ausf G + Hs in 1943 and 1944 so I assume they were in service for years after that.

The official site of the Spanish army says they took delivery of 20 PzKpfw IV Ausf. H in 1944. They were first used by the armoured division 'Brunete' and later served in various cavalry regiments.
17 tanks were sold to Syria and used in 1967.
...
BTW, no mention is made of any Ausf. G's or deliveries in 1943.
10 StuG III were bought in 1944 and served with the artillery school until 1954. One StuG is preserved in the army museum and claimed to be in running order.

The only variant of the Pz.Kpfw. IV utilized by Spain was the "Ausf.H" that arrived in 1944 (20 units) in application of the Bär Plan (negotiated between the Spanish General Martinez Campos and the German General Becker during 1943) with the 10 StuG IIIG. Not later acquisitions of Panzers or StuGs, were done.

In 1954 all StuGs were retired. Four remain in Spain. From them, three are on the Artillery Academy of Segovia and one at the Armored Vehicles Musseum, El Goloso (Madrid). The destiny of the other six is uncertain. Maybe were sold to Syria? I don't know.

In 1965 seventeen Panzer IVH were sold to Syria. The last three were conserved and now remain on the Army Base of Diego Porcelos (Burgos), the Armored Vehicles Musseum of El Goloso (Madrid) and the Army Base "El Empecinado" situated on Santovenia de Pisuerga (Valladolid). From those (chassis S/N: 85573, chassis S/N: 85596 and chassis S/N: 84631), one of them was restored to operative conditions by SPA-MIR (Servicios y Proyectos Avanzados), reciently.

Paul, Ive got a figure of 20 for the Spanish StuGIIs, Ausf Gs.

No. We only receive 10 units.



About the rumors about Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf.G in Spain... Well, we have two possible answers to their procedence.

a) Some merchants damaged on route, with supplies and vehicles for the Afrika Korps were interned in Spanish controlled territory during the war. If I recall correctly one Merchant ship with ~60 Pz. IVG was interned but the tanks were returned with the ship after the end of the war, and never used by the Spanish Army.

b) The initial conversations of the Bär Plan carried out during March and April of 1943 included the Spanish petition of 250 Pz.Kpfw. III Ausf.H/J and 100 Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf.G. Obviously the German negotiators denied that due to the needs of the Wehrmacht for the war. But perhaps these initial talks originated the rumors of the arrival of some Pz.IV Ausf.G to Spain.