The Undeclared War

[Freiritter]

I remember reading that the U.S. Navy were escorting convoys as far as Iceland by mid-late 1941 and even deployed U.S. Marines there, relieving British troops of the task. U.S. Navy destroyers were even engaging German U-boats on the high seas. I think that Doenitz was trying to keep the Americans from entering the war, so he hamstrung his U-boat commanders from provoking the U.S. in to entering the war. Was there ever any diplomatic initiative to remedy the crisis, or did Doenitz simply hope to defeat the British before the balloon went up?

[behblc]

Hitler was trying not to "provoke" the USA and I think it was he who wanted no dirct confrontation bewteen U-Boats /USN.
Donitz was being drawn into an undeclared war with the US through trying to attack shipping bound for the Uk.
The sinking of US destroyer/ damaging of another and the chase after the Texas by a submarine all signs that sooner or later war would follow.
Must have been a hateful and Catch 22 situation for U-boat Commanders to have been in , they would possibley have to answer for what might easily have been a decision or situation which might draw America closer into the war.

[Freiritter]

Well, then maybe that begs a question. Was Roosevelt trying to provoke the Germans into another " Lusitania ", providing him with the excuse to break neutrality and enter the war, officially?

[behblc]

FDR knew it was only a question of time until Ameica was going to be at war be that in the far east or against germany.
Certainly he played hardball in the Atlantic.
The incidents did ocur ...he didn't delacre war but each must have pushed them closer...if Texas had been sunk or damaged seriously.....its very possible that would have pushed things over the edge.

[Freiritter]

Good point. Did Britain need American aid? I heard that the British were very strained in 1941, did Churchill hope on American intervention?

[sid guttridge]

Hi Freiritter,

Britain desperately needed American industrial and financial aid in 1941 and was already getting both.

And yes, Churchill did want American intervention. It was a policy goal of his.

Cheers,

Sid.

[101stDoc]

Yep, the Corps was there. So were the other forces.

Yet another interesting factoid...most people forget the USMC was involved, tho at a much smaller level, in the ETO theater.

A USMC unit captured an important objective in the invasion of North Africa, for example.

Doc

[Freiritter]

What objective was that, Doc?

[101stDoc]

During the landings at Arzeu (Algeria), Marines went ashore & marched to Oran, where they captured a strategic fort at the northern end of the harbor.

Another detachment from the USS Pittsburgh captured an airport at Safi, French Morocco til it could be relieved.

Doc

[behblc]

As Sid says....Winnie wanted the USA to come in against Germany.
Without the USA becoming directly involved it is with hindsight ..even in 41 difficult to see Britain and the Allied camp as it was then being able to invade Europe.

[Freiritter]

Didn't know that Doc, thanks. I thought the Marine Corps concentrated on the PTO, and left the ETO and MTO to the Army. But, could've the British and the Commonwealth won the war with only U.S. industrial and financial support, if the Japanese didn't attack Pearl Harbor?

[101stDoc]

I dunno (re: only financial/logitiscal support...no military).

I don't think anyone can say anything either way on that issue. There's too many "What if's" involved.

The best I could say is maybe.

Doc

[Freiritter]

Yep, I hear you. Although my thoughts is that Roosevelt was looking for a way to get into the war, so maybe non-involvement would be academic

[101stDoc]

Roosevelt MIGHT have, eventually, found a way to get the US into WW2 militarily. But who knows. Important to remember the US was strongly (in general) isolationist at the time, and didn't in general want to get involved in another "world war". PH changed all that of course...

Doc

[Oracle]

I found a letter dated 30 July 1941 in a file in the National Archives in London concerning a vehicle compound that someone complained to Churchill about in August 1940 as being a lovely target for the Luftwaffe. It revealed that the number of vehicles supplied from 'America' which also included Canada by the way, had been around 23,000 by the time of writing. These had been 'almost entirely to meet requirements of the Middle East, Far East, Australia, etc.' At the time there were around 180,000 vehicles in the UK excluding motorcycles!!! But the best bit is 'It was therefore, perfectly true that we needed American help badly, and that the Middle East would have been sunk without it'.

So, can we now take it that it is an accepted fact that without Canadian and US supply the war in North Africa from summer 1940 to summer 1941 would have been lost in the Axis's favour? If you [royal 'you'] want to arque about US supplies, well we have to add up White, White-Ruxtell, Mack, US Ford, US Chevrolet and GMC trucks. To that must be added Caterpillar and a host of other manufacturers of items other than trucks, plus the British financial investment in General Motors' facilities from early 1940 for designign and building the Allison aircraft engines.