..the brits had used gas?
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..the brits had used gas?
Churchill said that if the germans had invaded britain they would have retaliated with mustard gas. As you probably know the germans had much worse gas than this. Do you think they would have retaliated with this as revenge? Would they have used it against the civilian population?
I do not believe Churchill would ever have used chemical warfare as a way of repelling a German invasion. Firstly, it would have caused huge dissent throughout the allies, since Britain would be the first country to use gas in WW11. Also, if you were a general in the Wehrmacht, wouldn't you try to prepare for the threat? Most German troops were issued gas masks, and the tactics I would have used would be to take control of the coastal towns first, holding as many civillians as possible, and thereby preventing Churchill deploying gas for fear of killing more cilvilians than soldiers. Not to mention the threat of Nazi reprisals in the future...
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LiL_Puma
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I'd had to go with the above statement. Britain and most of the Allies had been at the Geneva Convention where they all, including Germany, vowed not to ever use chemical warfare again. Besides, if Britain used gas as a weapon during a invasion of the British Isles, wouldn't it hurt a substantal British civilian population. I think that'd be a big reason why something like that would be a bad option.
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Henrik Krog
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Of course he would use gas!
The British intended to use gas, and Churchill would have had no problems using it on them, either. About the arguments to the contrary:
1) Conventions and laws of war
All fine and good, but when the sheer existence of your country is at stake, people tend to take a somewhat more practical view of what is all right and what is not. Had the Germans invaded in 1940, Great Britain would have been the 8th country in a row to be occupied by Germany.
When it comes down to either abide by the laws of war or insuring the survival of your country, people tend to choose the latter.
2) The Allies would be mad
So what? At the time, apart from the British dominians, who would probably have shared the British oppinion of the matter, the only other allies were the exiles who had fled continental Europe, and what were they to say or do if they disagreed.....were they to go back to their home countries? Hardly. No, they would have fallen in behind the British also.
3) Civilian casualties
First off, the landings were to be made on the beaches - harbors tend to be a bit too well defended for direct assaults. As a result of this, the gas was to be used the exact same place - on the beaches. No (or very few) civilians would be around. And even if they were, or if the gas had to be used in a town the Germans had seized, the casualties would probably be negligible. Though many peopled dont seem to understand this, chemical weapons are a pretty bad choice if you want to kill people. What they are normally used as is as so-called area-denial weapons. Wind and weather normally makes sure, that fatalities are comparably few.
Other than that, I think the konsequences of Churchill using chemical weapons on the Germans would have meant they would have been thrown back into the ocean. Not because of excessive deaths and injuries - though that would also be a contributing factor - but because the gas would have caused a notable loss in mobility, as the horses that were to draw a majority of the German supply columns were killed off, and as protective gear against C-weapons generally slows you down.
This allows time for the British to build up more troops around the German bridgeheads.
So, a German defeat. More troops probably flow into N-Africa, to help the Germans save face by beating the British in another theater.
More importantly, though, it means that the gloves are off. If the British are free to use gas on the battlefield, so are the Germans. They probably wont use it to attack cities, as the Germans full well knew that their cities were more vulnerable than were those of the Brits. But in the attack on the USSR, gas is fine to add to the casualties by the unprotected Soviet infantry. Expect a longer war in the east.
Henrik
Henrik
1) Conventions and laws of war
All fine and good, but when the sheer existence of your country is at stake, people tend to take a somewhat more practical view of what is all right and what is not. Had the Germans invaded in 1940, Great Britain would have been the 8th country in a row to be occupied by Germany.
When it comes down to either abide by the laws of war or insuring the survival of your country, people tend to choose the latter.
2) The Allies would be mad
So what? At the time, apart from the British dominians, who would probably have shared the British oppinion of the matter, the only other allies were the exiles who had fled continental Europe, and what were they to say or do if they disagreed.....were they to go back to their home countries? Hardly. No, they would have fallen in behind the British also.
3) Civilian casualties
First off, the landings were to be made on the beaches - harbors tend to be a bit too well defended for direct assaults. As a result of this, the gas was to be used the exact same place - on the beaches. No (or very few) civilians would be around. And even if they were, or if the gas had to be used in a town the Germans had seized, the casualties would probably be negligible. Though many peopled dont seem to understand this, chemical weapons are a pretty bad choice if you want to kill people. What they are normally used as is as so-called area-denial weapons. Wind and weather normally makes sure, that fatalities are comparably few.
Other than that, I think the konsequences of Churchill using chemical weapons on the Germans would have meant they would have been thrown back into the ocean. Not because of excessive deaths and injuries - though that would also be a contributing factor - but because the gas would have caused a notable loss in mobility, as the horses that were to draw a majority of the German supply columns were killed off, and as protective gear against C-weapons generally slows you down.
This allows time for the British to build up more troops around the German bridgeheads.
So, a German defeat. More troops probably flow into N-Africa, to help the Germans save face by beating the British in another theater.
More importantly, though, it means that the gloves are off. If the British are free to use gas on the battlefield, so are the Germans. They probably wont use it to attack cities, as the Germans full well knew that their cities were more vulnerable than were those of the Brits. But in the attack on the USSR, gas is fine to add to the casualties by the unprotected Soviet infantry. Expect a longer war in the east.
Henrik
Henrik
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Henrik Krog
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preparedness
The military forces of Germany and Great Britain were probably prepared about the same during the war. But the Brits had taken measures to protect their entire population - the Germans had not. Thus, a good reason for the Germans not to try anything funny with chemical weapons.
Henrik
Henrik
Ioan and Gas
You think Churchill would have been too moralistic to use gas? HAH!
Ask the Scots if they are now - sixty years after - able to use that tiny Scot island where Churchill ordered biological warfare to be tried out. Way I remember it, both anthrax and other biotoxins were used and so thoroughly infected that small island that it could not be used for anything. The grand-grand-etc daddies of the goats that had survived got fat on the grass, and that was all.
But for human use it was much too poisoned.
Every country taking part in WW2 had gas ... thank God everybody was too scared to use it, because nobody knew what the enemy had, and would use in retaliation. Joscha
Ask the Scots if they are now - sixty years after - able to use that tiny Scot island where Churchill ordered biological warfare to be tried out. Way I remember it, both anthrax and other biotoxins were used and so thoroughly infected that small island that it could not be used for anything. The grand-grand-etc daddies of the goats that had survived got fat on the grass, and that was all.
But for human use it was much too poisoned.
Every country taking part in WW2 had gas ... thank God everybody was too scared to use it, because nobody knew what the enemy had, and would use in retaliation. Joscha
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Sebastian Pye
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I´d like to point out that the germans had much deadlier gas than the brits.
3 different kinds of nerv-gas I believe while the brits were still stuck with mustard gas.
About Churchills morals. He said himself that if the germans invaded they(the brits) would use lowflying aircraft and drop gas at bridgeheads captured by the germans.
3 different kinds of nerv-gas I believe while the brits were still stuck with mustard gas.
About Churchills morals. He said himself that if the germans invaded they(the brits) would use lowflying aircraft and drop gas at bridgeheads captured by the germans.
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MCO
Gases
Does anyone know what intelligence the British had in 1940-41 on German nerve gases?Sebastian Pye wrote:I´d like to point out that the germans had much deadlier gas than the brits.
3 different kinds of nerv-gas I believe while the brits were still stuck with mustard gas.
About Churchills morals. He said himself that if the germans invaded they(the brits) would use lowflying aircraft and drop gas at bridgeheads captured by the germans.
In 1940-41, the Germans only had two military nerve gases, tabun and sarin. Soman was developed later in the war.
The use of chemical agents during the war was always a possibility. The US seriously considered using gases against the Japanese in the event of an US invasion of the Japanese home islands should the Japanese resisted too strongly.
<--- dilated pupils from sniffing nerve gases?
<--- affects of blister agents.
<---- the bewilderment caused by BZ.