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Oradour
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Tom Houlihan
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That quote goes for me, too, as a preface to the thought that just popped into my brain housing group.sid guttridge wrote:Actually, I knew precious little about Oradour before this thread
Well, it's entirely possible it was a non-Catholic church, has anyone looked into that?As the FTP were anti-clerical and the pro-Vichy cRoman Catholic Church was hostile to them, surely it would have heightened the risk of exposure if they hid munitions in a church? In the light of this, is there any explanation offered as to why they would have taken what is apparently an additional risk? Was the church in question perhaps not Catholic? Was the pastor concerned perhaps an early "liberation theologian" sympathetic to them?
Still, if they had a sympathizer, like a cleaning lady or handy-man, why not hide their stuff in one of the last places anyone would look for it? Who would suspect FTP munitions in a Catholic church??
Taking that thought one step further, is it possible that strange happenstance caused, or at least contributed to the extent of this tragedy?
If all those women and children weren't meant to be burned, but something happened in the church, which in turn ignited the munitions...
I'm not sure where I'm going with this. This is the first time I've read this thread all the way through. Reading the post quoted above just tripped a switch cranially.
And, no, I'm not trying to absolve anyone, from either side.
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Paddy Keating
Well said, Timo. While I agree entirely with Craig Soward's posts, I would like to remind him that there is no point in arguing with staring-eyed American Phalangists and Christian Fundamentalist Zealots who support the Bushite-Zionazi Axis and who, unfortunately, seem to find their way onto Nazi-related websites...which probably isn't a coincidence. They only way to win an argument with such people is to kill them. That is illegal so let's just tell them that they are right and get back to discussing the topic in hand, namely Oradour-sur-Glane in June 1944.
PK
PK
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Craig Soward
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Cheers Paddy
Cheers Paddy,
I APOLOGISE TO ALL FOR DERAILING THE THREAD, was just trying to make some comparisons between then & now....looks like my thoughts stirred some feelings up, which cant be a bad thing, can it?
I APOLOGISE TO ALL FOR DERAILING THE THREAD, was just trying to make some comparisons between then & now....looks like my thoughts stirred some feelings up, which cant be a bad thing, can it?
They shall not grow old, as we who are left grow old. Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun & in the morning...WE WILL REMEMBER THEM. LEST WE FORGET!
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sid guttridge
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Hi Craig,
While I see no reason to doubt that the Waffen-SS was disproportionally prone to commit atrocities compared with the German Army, it is also true that they are sometimes blamed for things they did not do.
Only about six weeks after Oradour, during the German assault on the maquis in the Vercors Massif, there occurred a massacre of several dozen wounded maquisards in a cave (the Grotte des .......?). In some early French writing this was blamed on the SS. However, there were no Waffen-SS present during the operation. Part of an SS police regiment did take part in the operation, but it was on a different part of the battlefield. Fortunately more recent French writing has dropped this accusation. The massacre did occur, but the most likely culprits are Eastern Volunteers.
Cheers,
Sid.
While I see no reason to doubt that the Waffen-SS was disproportionally prone to commit atrocities compared with the German Army, it is also true that they are sometimes blamed for things they did not do.
Only about six weeks after Oradour, during the German assault on the maquis in the Vercors Massif, there occurred a massacre of several dozen wounded maquisards in a cave (the Grotte des .......?). In some early French writing this was blamed on the SS. However, there were no Waffen-SS present during the operation. Part of an SS police regiment did take part in the operation, but it was on a different part of the battlefield. Fortunately more recent French writing has dropped this accusation. The massacre did occur, but the most likely culprits are Eastern Volunteers.
Cheers,
Sid.
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sid guttridge
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Craig Soward
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G'day Sid,
I guess all I was trying to highlight was the fact that these things did go on, on both sides, with the German ones written about in great detail & the Allied / Russian ones not really mentioned. By saying these things, people want to label you an apologist or a nazi sympathiser but I just think, keep an open mind, as there are usually 2 sides to every story,
Cheers,
Craig.
I guess all I was trying to highlight was the fact that these things did go on, on both sides, with the German ones written about in great detail & the Allied / Russian ones not really mentioned. By saying these things, people want to label you an apologist or a nazi sympathiser but I just think, keep an open mind, as there are usually 2 sides to every story,
Cheers,
Craig.
They shall not grow old, as we who are left grow old. Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. At the going down of the sun & in the morning...WE WILL REMEMBER THEM. LEST WE FORGET!
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sid guttridge
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Hi Tom,
There are numerous places the Germans would not expect to find a Communist FTP arms dump, ranging from the Fuhrerbunker, through the barracks of the Das Reich Division, to a Catholic Church at Oradour. However, just because it has the advantage of being unlikely doesn't make it advisable, sensible or probable.
All the above locations have the same obvious practical disadvantages to a greater or lesser degree. As hostile premises one would only expect to find an FTP arms dump in them in exceptional circumstances.
I was wondering what these exceptional circumstances are proposed to be in the case of the church at Oradour. There are various possibilities, of which I outlined a couple and you added more.
To give any credibility to the suggestion that there was an FTP arms dump in the church at Oradour ideally requires hard evidence to that effect. In the absence of that, I would at least expect circumstantial evidence of the type for which we are asking, which at least might make it plausible, to be advanced.
However, although we have asked some of the necessary questions, there has, as yet, been no reply.
Cheers,
Sid.
There are numerous places the Germans would not expect to find a Communist FTP arms dump, ranging from the Fuhrerbunker, through the barracks of the Das Reich Division, to a Catholic Church at Oradour. However, just because it has the advantage of being unlikely doesn't make it advisable, sensible or probable.
All the above locations have the same obvious practical disadvantages to a greater or lesser degree. As hostile premises one would only expect to find an FTP arms dump in them in exceptional circumstances.
I was wondering what these exceptional circumstances are proposed to be in the case of the church at Oradour. There are various possibilities, of which I outlined a couple and you added more.
To give any credibility to the suggestion that there was an FTP arms dump in the church at Oradour ideally requires hard evidence to that effect. In the absence of that, I would at least expect circumstantial evidence of the type for which we are asking, which at least might make it plausible, to be advanced.
However, although we have asked some of the necessary questions, there has, as yet, been no reply.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Paddy Keating
Sid,
I withdraw the charge that you changed your post as part of a strategy to set me up and would like to offer my unreserved apologies.
Let's start a new thread about the Vercors thing. I think you're thinking of the Grotte de la Luire. It wasn't the only atrocity perpetrated during the Vercors action. Vaisseaux was destroyed in the fighting and many civilians were summarily executed by the Germans or, at least, people in German uniform.
For years people blamed "SS paratroops". No member of SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 was present on the Vercors in July 1944. The only Fallschirmjäger there were the members of Kampfgruppe Schäfer, from II./KG 200. The atrocities were probably carried out by Osttruppen elements who were issued with LW FJ smocks and helmets for the gliderborne operation. Also present were SD contingents from Lyons, Klaus Barbie's stomping ground, some of whom were French.
The principal suspects are indeed Ostruppen elements from the Heer. I'll try and kick the new thread off later today.
Regards,
Paddy Keating
I withdraw the charge that you changed your post as part of a strategy to set me up and would like to offer my unreserved apologies.
Let's start a new thread about the Vercors thing. I think you're thinking of the Grotte de la Luire. It wasn't the only atrocity perpetrated during the Vercors action. Vaisseaux was destroyed in the fighting and many civilians were summarily executed by the Germans or, at least, people in German uniform.
For years people blamed "SS paratroops". No member of SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 was present on the Vercors in July 1944. The only Fallschirmjäger there were the members of Kampfgruppe Schäfer, from II./KG 200. The atrocities were probably carried out by Osttruppen elements who were issued with LW FJ smocks and helmets for the gliderborne operation. Also present were SD contingents from Lyons, Klaus Barbie's stomping ground, some of whom were French.
The principal suspects are indeed Ostruppen elements from the Heer. I'll try and kick the new thread off later today.
Regards,
Paddy Keating
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sid guttridge
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Hi Craig,
It is, indeed, advisable to keep an open mind.
However, just because two or more versions of the same event exist doesn't mean that they should be given equal weight.
No matter how many versions of an event exists, it is clear that only one course of events can actually have occurred and that only one version will be nearest to accurately portraying them. Our job is to identify it and refine it by questioning the evidence.
We must all be careful that, as the saying goes, we "don't keep so open a mind that one's brain falls out".
Cheers,
Sid.
It is, indeed, advisable to keep an open mind.
However, just because two or more versions of the same event exist doesn't mean that they should be given equal weight.
No matter how many versions of an event exists, it is clear that only one course of events can actually have occurred and that only one version will be nearest to accurately portraying them. Our job is to identify it and refine it by questioning the evidence.
We must all be careful that, as the saying goes, we "don't keep so open a mind that one's brain falls out".
Cheers,
Sid.
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sid guttridge
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Hello all!
Wow, six pages and not one bit of information regarding the original post! Well, allow me to bring an update! Well, an update unless everyone already knows about this, here is a link to the same website regarding this topic:
http://www.oradour.info/appendix/retorord.htm
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Wow, six pages and not one bit of information regarding the original post! Well, allow me to bring an update! Well, an update unless everyone already knows about this, here is a link to the same website regarding this topic:
http://www.oradour.info/appendix/retorord.htm
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!
Well stated Wolfkin.
The question is: WHERE IS THIS ORDER ? and if it has disappeared what else does the "Das Reich Archive" hold? I am very keen to know more about this "archive".
It may seem minor but it is things like this that caste doubt on the professionalism of the staff at the 'Oradour Centre'.
In fact it is only very recently that they finally got the name correct of the main "perpretrator" of the crime.
The question is: WHERE IS THIS ORDER ? and if it has disappeared what else does the "Das Reich Archive" hold? I am very keen to know more about this "archive".
It may seem minor but it is things like this that caste doubt on the professionalism of the staff at the 'Oradour Centre'.
In fact it is only very recently that they finally got the name correct of the main "perpretrator" of the crime.
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sid guttridge
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Hi Wolfkin,
We are not in a position to make accusations like "fabricated".
What we have is a series of chinese whispers from some unspecified archive in Germany, via an unspecified Oradour staff member, via Williams, via T H Albright to us. The whole thing is currently so vague as not to be worthy of serious attention in any way.
Cheers,
Sid.
We are not in a position to make accusations like "fabricated".
What we have is a series of chinese whispers from some unspecified archive in Germany, via an unspecified Oradour staff member, via Williams, via T H Albright to us. The whole thing is currently so vague as not to be worthy of serious attention in any way.
Cheers,
Sid.