12.SS Ausbildung und Ersatz Btl. Info needed

[Josef Hahne]

Hello,
I am new to the list and this is my first posting. I hope someone out there can shed some light on the questions I have.
I am interested in obtaining in depth info. on how the training and replacement battalions operated in the 12. SS Hitlerjugend Division during the initial training of the division..
The specific quesations I have are:
#1 Since the different elements of the forming division were spread all over Belgium (ie, Signals & Aufkl. at Turnhout, Pz. Gren. At Beverloo, Panzer at Male le Camp, ect) did each training area have their own designation as a training battalion?

#2 How would have the different Ausbildung and Ersatz Batalions been written on documents?

To clarify, I have seen the training unit for the Hitlerjugend Pz. Grenadier trainig Battalion wriiten like this; SS-Pz. Gren. Ausb. u. Ers. Btl. 12
Since Aufkarungs were trained so far from thier Pz. Grenadier counterparts, if they had their own Ausb. Bat. would it have been SS-Pz. Aufkl. Ausb. u. Ers. Btl. 1 or something like it?

#3 If the training of the division started in Sept. of 1943 and ended in early spring of 1944, why was this training period so much longer than the common training period of 3 months for Wehrmacht recruits during the same time period?

#4 Would new recruits have been assigned to a specific training location (ie Turnhout, Beverloo, or Herentals) directly from their local home town recruiting station? Or would they have been sent to a central 12. SS personal depot. and sorted there before being assigned to a training unit?

I am unable to find any detailed info on this subject. It is hard enough to find detailed combat info on certain 12. SS units let alone organizational info. Any help would be appreciated.

Josef

[Peter]

just some info....
For some time in 1944 (till August) the SS Pz.Gren Ausb u Ers Btl. 12 was stationed in the Netherlands.
A large part was sedn to Normandy in Augst as re-inforcements of 1st SS Pz. Korps. The remainder and most of the training staf did stay in the netherlands and the name of the unit changed into SS Pz.gren A.u.E 16 (of wich a part saw action at Arnhem)

One of the officers that went to Normandy was called Hanssen or something like that. Any info on him would be welcome...

[Josef Hahne]

Peter & List,
Thanks for the info! Do you have the first name and rank of the Officer Hanssen? I have a friend that is an SS Officer vet. who was trained in Bad Tolz near the end of the war. He joined 12.SS right before Wacht am Rhein. If you have any more info about Hanssen and he was still in 12.SS by then, he may have known of him.
My SS vet. friend seems to think each 12.SS training location had their own Ausbildungs designation. Since he came throught the back door into the Division, he can't say for sure. He was educated at the Adolf Hitler Schule and then at Bad Tolz before being sent to Sennelager near Paderborn to be trained on the Panther and later on the Konigstiger.
According to him, no "trainees" at Sennelager were assigned to a unit until after completing training. After training he recieved his U boat leather and was sent to 12.SS. Others were sent to both Wehrmacht and SS field units.
I can make assumptions based on other Wehrmacht units whose unit histories I have and my SS vet. friends thoughts but I would rather have exact info especially info about the training of SS Pz. Aufkl. Abt. 12 of the Hitlerjugend Division in 1943/44.
Thank you,
Josef

[Peter]

The name is Hansen (with only one 's') . No rank is given but I presume he was a H.stuf....

[Hans Weber]

Hello Peter,

I am new to the list and this is my first posting. I hope someone out there can shed some light on the questions I have.
I am interested in obtaining in depth info. on how the training and replacement battalions operated in the 12. SS Hitlerjugend Division during the initial training of the division..
The specific quesations I have are:
#1 Since the different elements of the forming division were spread all over Belgium (ie, Signals & Aufkl. at Turnhout, Pz. Gren. At Beverloo, Panzer at Male le Camp, ect) did each training area have their own designation as a training battalion?

I don't know if I understood your question correctly and I don't have a perfect answer, as it is quite a rare topic. I try to answer by explaining how things were supposed to work normally: Waffen-SS units formed in the last years of the war did so by drafting men from training, replacement and reconvalescent units and military schools. This was according the directives of the RF-SS (Himmler). The Waffen SS entertained such replacment units the same way the Heer had the so called Ersatzheer (which was led by Himmler since July 44). The role of such units was primarly to form soldiers, give them their basic training in there relevant function (Pionier, Grenadier etc). These men were then used to form new units or to refill units. These training and replacement units were not considered to be part of the fighting forces (kämpfende Truppe). So it would be not right to connect them to specific Divisions. Divisions however normally had the socalled Feldersatzbataillon (FEB). In this unit, which was part of the Division, the new men, already formed in Ersatzunits would refine their training and get so called "frontnahe Ausbildung". The Division could also have a "Divisionskampfschule" to train men. Kompanies in such a FEB nor classes in the Divisionskampfschule normally concentrated specialists to get the most out of the training, e.g. there was a Reserve Aufklärungskompanie etc. Sometimes these FEB were concentrated on Corps level. FEB 1 and FEB 12 of I. SS Pz. Korps for instance formed the Feldersatz Brigade 501 for the remainder of the war (roughly regimental size). Maybe the question regarding the training area reflects on the habit that Training units usually were named after the location they were stationed. A.uE.Btl 1 was also called "Spreehagen" for its location. However, when reading Huber Meyer, I doubt that there was a "A.u.E.Btl Beverloo". He states that in the first phase, the recruits of both PGR were trained there (Einzelausbildung) and PGR 26 later moved to Maria-ter Heide for the Verbandsausbildung. From this I would deduct that the Division's first men already received their basic training in the formation named as their (later) combat formation. At least these formations already must have existed at the end of 43.

2 How would have the different Ausbildung and Ersatz Batalions been written on documents?

There was a training unit directly associated to 12 SS Pz Div I know of: The divison's own FEB 12. The Panzergrenadier-Ausbilungs- und Ersatzbataillon 12 was not part of the Division, but to my knowledge took over the part of giving recruits their basic training before releasing them to the Division, they were not considered a combat formation. It was probably only set up after the first wave of recruits had their formation, but this remains to be checked. As far I know, it moved from Arnhem to Kaiserslautern during July/August 44.

To clarify, I have seen the training unit for the Hitlerjugend Pz. Grenadier trainig Battalion wriiten like this; SS-Pz. Gren. Ausb. u. Ers. Btl. 12

This unit was not intergral part of the 12. SS Division, see above.

Since Aufkarungs were trained so far from thier Pz. Grenadier counterparts, if they had their own Ausb. Bat. would it have been SS-Pz. Aufkl. Ausb. u. Ers. Btl. 1 or something like it?

No, the units trained in their combat formation, ie an Aufklärungsabteilung trained as combat unit, if circumstances permitted at full strength. New men received special attention in the FEB ideally in the Reserve Kp of their function (again if time permitted). Men who could not be put on vhc or get proper equipment sometimes were put back into FEB, there to form a first reserve pool, not to encumber combat operations with more logistic problems.

#

3 If the training of the division started in Sept. of 1943 and ended in early spring of 1944, why was this training period so much longer than the common training period of 3 months for Wehrmacht recruits during the same time period?

As far I know, HJ was a special case ie. it got kids which came from the school and maybe had already had some experience as Luftwaffenhelfer and had contact with military themes as Hitlerjungen, but that was all. So the Division had to start from nothing. Einzelausbildung (=very basic training) was already finished in November 43, btw. It was this long training process which gave them an edge in the early Normandy battles (some would say they were fanatics). After the Division was bled white, the new men didn't have this opportunity and its combat performance went down drastically.

#

4 Would new recruits have been assigned to a specific training location (ie Turnhout, Beverloo, or Herentals) directly from their local home town recruiting station? Or would they have been sent to a central 12. SS personal depot. and sorted there before being assigned to a training unit?

Can't give you an answer on how it exactly went without consulting more sources. 12. SS anyway was a special case. Shooting from the hip I think the first men/kids already trained in their unit as it would not make much sense to form a Training Division. Later, the FEB would get more or less trained replacment to distribute after some time.


I would be glad to hear more of what you have found out.
Cheers
Hans

[M.Clifton]

#3 why was training longer ...

Hans Weber above, sorta touched on the problem the 12ss had in that it was started from scratch. It appears that one problem was that new recruits (in general) weren't making the "SS" cut at the recruitment level during the 1943 propaganda drive. That slowed the building process considerably. Nonetheless overall they were nearly manned up by end of Sept. 43 after having started in July.

The biggest reason (imho) was equipment, fuel/ammo shortages.
Here's a couple of quick examples...
Wunsche's Panzer units started training July 43 (Mailly), but because of vehicle, equipment and petrol shortages were forced to practice maneuvers walking around. It would not even get up to NEAR full strength until Dec. when it received men from Latvia. That's already 5 months gone. The unit had only received less then half of it's tanks by then.

The grenadiers were forced to start training in whatever uniform (or civilian) clothing they brought with them. Vehicles such as trucks, motorcycles etc. were virtually nonexistent until Dec.43/Jan.44 ... and so on.

When the division was OK'd in April of 1944 it was still short 48% of it's NCO's and another 144 officers. That's a pretty big chunk!

So it's safe to say it's hard to train when you have little to train with.


Edit = fix spelling typo's

[Hans Weber]

Hello M. Clifton,

I agree with you, the material situation certainly hindered training and the chronic shortage of experienced NCO has to be taken in account. The nice photo series, where a tramway pulled armored cars for lack of fuel during training comes to mind. Some opinions also point out that the command did make some mistakes in the very first battles, which can be attributed to the fact that the unit as such had no combat experience. I think that a close analysis of the opening battles would yield more aspects. Compared to other division, e.g. its sister LAH, it was in better shape in June 44 and thus was lucky to have had enough time to train.
Cheers
Hans
BTW sorry Josef for calling you Peter

[Josef Hahne]

Hans,
I appreciate all the answers you provided in your post. I think the lack of specific information about the Hitlerjugend Division lends itself to many questions. I agree that I have dredged up a very obscure question but for some reason I am obsessed with how these members were trained.
Maybe I did not do such a great job of explaining my first question, I will use examples here to try to explain better.
Soldat #1 Nikolaus Schmatz joined the Waffen SS and was assigned to SS Nachtrichtung Ausbildungs Abteilung in Nurnberg. Upon his completion, he was posted to 13/ Kompanie Der Führer as a Funker. Page one of his Soldbuch has his rank as Funker and his Erkennungsmake reflects his first training station (the Nachtrichtung Abteilung). It seems he was sent to a specialty training station and posted to a Division that needed his services upon his completion. This goes in line with what my SS vet. friend told me about his trainning at Sennelager.
Soldat #2 Heinz Kassel joined the Waffen SS on Jan. 1944. Page one of his Soldbuch has his rank stamped as SS Pionier. Page 1 also shows his Erkennungsmarke was stamped by his first training station SS-Pi. Ausb.u. Ers. Btl 1. After completion he was posted to 17.SS Pz. Grenadier Div. Gotz Von Berlichingen Stabs kompanie in thier Pionier kompanie.

Both of these Soldaten received specialized traning from what seems to be specialized traning battalions. It seems that most if not all were not attached directly to the divisions where they served in front line units. By the looks of the above examples, if there was an SS voluntier that was ear marked to be a member of an SS Aufklärung unit, he would have been sent to a specialized training facility first, then posted to an SS unit that needed his services.
I have seen numerous Soldbucher from LAH Soldaten. The most common training battalion for these men was SS-Pz. Gren. Ausb. u. Ers. Bat. 1 located at Berlin Lichterfeld. The most common field unit that these men went to afterward was a Panzer Grenadier unit in the Leibstandarte Adolf Hilter. I imagine that since 1.SS and 12.SS had so many ties to one another, they would have been set up the same with the exception that 12.SS had men trained at several different locations while Berlin Lichterfeld seems to be the central training location for 1.SS.
Now getting back to my original question, since 12.SS seems to have had their own specialized training facilities set up across Belgium, eastern France, and southern Holland to train the men that would make up the front line troops of the division, would their training battalions have had names like SS-Pz. Nachtrichtung Ausb. u. Ersatz Btl. 12, SS-Pz.-Pionier Ausb. u. Ers. Btl. 12, and SS-Pz. Aufkl. Ausb. u. Ers. 12? Or would they have had their future combat regiment designations like SS-Panzernachtrichtungabteilung 12 or SS- Panzeraufklärungsabteilung 12? I think logic would dictate that each specialty regiment would have had a name for their training battalion that trained the unit members but since the division was training its own members to fill up new positions with in their own Division. It is feesible that since "front line Kompanies existed on paper only (until the members completed their training) why not call them what they will be once their training is done?
I suppose that this question can only be answered by someone that was actually a member of the 12.SS and was in a specialty unit and trained as such from within the division. I have never seen a specialty Soldbuch from the pre Normandy Hitlerjugend Division. I would be very curious to look at one if any list member knows of the where-abouts of one.
Any ideas?
Josef

[Hans Weber]

Hello Josef,

I think the soldiers Schmatz and Kassel are typical cases, thanks for citing them. SS-Nachrichten-Ersatz-Abteilung formed the Nachrichtenmänner of several SS-Division and SS-Pionier-Ausbildungs- und Ersatz-Regiment/Btl (size seems to have varied) 1 at Dresden was responsible for the training of Waffen-SS engineers. The several SS Panzergrenadier-A.u.E. Btls seem to be at the root of most divisions, as manpower first and foremost had to go to the Panzergrenadiere, which also suffered the most. In several cases we can find these units connected by their number to a division. So I would say, the specialist were formed by specialized A.u.E.Btl, which sometimes did this job for all the Waffen SS, the need for Panzergrenadiere however dicateded a bigger number of Pz.Gren A.u.E. Btl/Rgt which in turn were supposed to primarly serve a certain Division or a Corps.

As for the HJ you are right, without more sources I only can speculate. In Panzermeyer's book it is stated that the formation into Truppenteile nach Kriegsgliederung was completed by September 43. So after this time, they trained in their combat units imho. Maybe for getting basic infantry training at Beverloo training camp, some sort of a unit was created which laid the basis for A.u.E.Btl 12. I recently checked the reference material in the BA-MA for Ausbildungseinheiten, and there is some material to be found there, eg SS-Inf Ers. Btl "Germania" or SS-Pz.Gren A.u.E. Btl 5 "Ellwangen-Jagst". Hopefully I can find out more the next time.

Cheers
Hans

[hve9]

Hello to all,

I'm new on this site, so excuse me for nog being so informed as a lot of you. I'm looking too for information about the training of the 12tth SS Div HJ, especially for the training site of Turnhout and Oud-Turnhout. In the last community, I found and a whole range of dug-in 's which have been usesd to train the young soldiers. The town has been a HQ too for the SS during 1942 -1944. I trie to understand the training scheme, what the use of dug-in's is in this training( inside 4 m on 8 m ; outside 8m on 12 m, height 1m20 above the ground and severakl of the in the form of the bones of a fish). And ofcourse what the role of the HQ in this town was.
I do have a pic(with no exact location but in the near of Turnhout) but need a clue to get them on the site...

greetings
Hve