facts you wont find on the History Channel

General WWII era German military discussion that doesn't fit someplace more specific.
pzrmeyer2

facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by pzrmeyer2 »

From Patrick Buchanan:
VDARE.COM - http://www.vdare.com/buchanan/090406_march_madness.htm

April 06, 2009

March Madness, 1939
By Patrick J. Buchanan

On Sept. 1, 1939, Hitler's panzers smashed into Poland. Two days later, an anguished Neville Chamberlain declared war, the most awful war in all of history.

Was the war inevitable? No. No war is inevitable until it has begun. Was it a necessary war? Hearken to Churchill:

"One day, President Roosevelt told me that he was asking publicly for suggestions about what the war should be called. I said at once, 'The Unnecessary War.' There never was a war more easy to stop than that which has just wrecked what was left of the world ... ."

But if the war need not have happened, what caused it?

Let us go back to Munich.

On Sept. 30, 1938, at Munich, Chamberlain signed away the Sudetenland rather than fight to keep 3.5 million Germans under a Czech rule imposed upon them at the Paris peace conference in violation of Wilson's principle of self-determination.

Why did Britain not fight?

Because Britain had no alliance with Prague and Chamberlain did not "give two hoots" who ruled the Sudetenland. Also, Britain had no draft, no divisions to send to France, no Spitfires, no support from America or her dominions, no ally save France, who had been told that, if war came, the United States would not deliver the planes France had purchased.

U.S. neutrality laws forbade it.

In his meetings with Chamberlain, Hitler had warned that Poland and Hungary would also be entering claims for ancestral lands ceded to the Czechs at Paris in 1919.

Thus, after Munich, Warsaw had seized coal-rich Teschen, which held tens of thousands of Poles. Hungary, in the "Vienna Award" of Nov. 2, 1938, got back lands in Slovakia and Ruthenia where Hungarians were the majority and Budapest had ruled before 1919.

Neither Britain nor France resisted these border revisions.

Came then March 1939, when Czechoslovakia began to crumble.

On March 10, to crush a Slovakian push for independence, Czech President Emil Hacha ousted Slovak Prime Minister Father Tiso, occupied Bratislava and installed a pro-Prague regime.

On March 11, Tiso fled to Vienna and appealed to Berlin.

On March 13, Tiso met Hitler, who told him that if he did not declare independence immediately, Germany would not interfere with Hungary's re-annexation of Slovakia. Budapest was moving troops to the border.

On March 14, Slovakia declared independence. Ruthenia followed, dissolving what was left of Czechoslovakia.

Adm. Horthy, told by Hitler he could re-annex Ruthenia but must keep his hands off Slovakia, occupied Ruthenia.

Hacha now asked to meet with Hitler to get the same guarantee of independence Slovakia had gotten. But Hitler bullied Hacha into making the Czech remnant a protectorate of Germany.

Thus, six months after Munich, the Germans of Czechoslovakia were where they wished to be, under German rule. The Poles were under Polish rule. The Hungarians were under Hungarian rule. And the Slovaks were under Slovak rule in their new nation.

But 500,000 Ruthenians were back under Budapest, and 7 million Czechs were back under German rule—this time Berlin, not Vienna.

Ethnonationalism had torn Czechoslovakia apart as it had the parent Hapsburg Empire. Yet, no vital British interest was imperiled.

And though Hitler had used brutal Bismarckian diplomacy, not force, Chamberlain was humiliated. The altarpiece of his career, the Munich accord, was now an object of mockery.

Made a fool of by Hitler, baited by his backbenchers, goaded by Lord Halifax, facing a vote of no confidence, on March 31, 1939, Chamberlain made the greatest blunder in British diplomatic history. He handed an unsolicited war guarantee to the Polish colonels who had just bitten off a chunk of Czechoslovakia.

Lunacy, raged Lloyd George, who was echoed by British leaders and almost every historian since.

With the British Empire behind it, Warsaw now refused even to discuss a return of Danzig, the Baltic town, 95 percent German, which even Chamberlain thought should be returned.

Hitler did not want a war with Poland. Had he wanted war, he would have demanded the return of the entire Polish Corridor taken from Germany in 1919. He wanted Danzig back and Poland as an ally in his anti-Comintern Pact. Nor did he want war with a Britain he admired and always saw as a natural ally.

Nor did he want war with France, or he would have demanded the return of Alsace.

But Hitler was out on a limb with Danzig and could not crawl back.

Repeatedly, Hitler tried to negotiate Danzig. Repeatedly, the Poles rebuffed him. Seeing the Allies courting Josef Stalin, Hitler decided to cut his own deal with the detested Bolsheviks and settle the Polish issue by force.

Though Britain had no plans to aid Poland, no intention of aiding Poland and would do nothing to aid Poland—Churchill would cede half that nation to Stalin and the other half to Stalin's stooges—Britain declared war for Poland.

The most awful war in all of history followed, which would bankrupt Britain, bring down her empire and bring Stalin's Red Army into Prague, Berlin and Vienna. But Hitler was dead and Germany in ashes.

Cost: 50 million lives. "But 'twas a famous victory."

Anyone care to disagree on Mr Buchanan's hypothesis?
Njorl
Contributor
Posts: 370
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:26 am
Location: Poland

Re: facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by Njorl »

Patrick J. Buchanan wrote:With the British Empire behind it, Warsaw now refused even to discuss a return of Danzig, the Baltic town, 95 percent German, which even Chamberlain thought should be returned.

I wonder, how could Warsaw discuss return of a city it did not control? For God's sake - Danzig (sic!) was not a part of Poland back then!
Patrick J. Buchanan wrote:Hitler did not want a war with Poland. Had he wanted war, he would have demanded the return of the entire Polish Corridor taken from Germany in 1919. He wanted Danzig back and Poland as an ally in his anti-Comintern Pact.
Until when?
Patrick J. Buchanan wrote:Seeing the Allies courting Josef Stalin, Hitler decided to cut his own deal with the detested Bolsheviks and settle the Polish issue by force.
Aha, so he did want war. :roll:
pzrmeyer2 wrote:Anyone care to disagree on Mr Buchanan's hypothesis?
Which one? Was the war necessary? Depends on point of view.

The Polenfeldzug might have been a local conflict only, but what would follow it? Would invasion of Albania, Greece, Yugoslawia not happen? Would Germans stop goading Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania? Would Mr Buchanan call German war with Soviets 'necessary'? If so, by whom? The Germans? Does Mr Buchannan think the Jews, Gypsies and handicaped would have been better off under peacetime in III Reich? Would it stop Japan from attacking Pearl Harbour and declaring war on US? Would they retreat from China?

Regards,
Michal Jungiewicz

PS. Mr Buchanan should have prepared himself better...
"Always be ready to speak your mind and a base man will avoid you" W. Blake, Proverbs of Hell
pzrmeyer2

Re: facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by pzrmeyer2 »

Interesting points you raise, Michal.
I wonder, how could Warsaw discuss return of a city it did not control? For God's sake - Danzig (sic!) was not a part of Poland back then!
No, it wasnt. But it was Poland that refused to allow the people of the city to vote on it and it was Poland who exterted pressure on the League of Nations to return th ecity to Germany. Is there any doubt that a plebicite would have rsulted in the overwhelming desire of Danzigers to return to German control?
The Polenfeldzug might have been a local conflict only, but what would follow it? Would invasion of Albania, Greece, Yugoslawia not happen? Would Germans stop goading Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania? Would Mr Buchanan call German war with Soviets 'necessary'? If so, by whom? The Germans? Does Mr Buchannan think the Jews, Gypsies and handicaped would have been better off under peacetime in III Reich? Would it stop Japan from attacking Pearl Harbour and declaring war on US? Would they retreat from China?
I dont know, and neither do you. Was it worth 50+ million lives and the entire destruction of many of Europe's cities, not to mention the past 60+ years of enormous societal changes in wesrern civilization? Who would have invaded Albania and Greece? certainly not Germany. Was Poland better off resisting Germany and losing 6+ million of its own citizens (including Jews) and seeing Warsaw raised to the ground? Compare those losses to Prague and the Czechs.

Makes me wonder.
phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by phylo_roadking »

Seeing the Allies courting Josef Stalin, Hitler decided to cut his own deal with the detested Bolsheviks and settle the Polish issue by force.
Actually, Stalin was courting GERMANY since Munich... :shock:
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
Rich
Associate
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2002 9:36 am
Location: Somewhere Else Now

Re: facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by Rich »

pzrmeyer2 wrote:From Patrick Buchanan:
Anyone care to disagree on Mr Buchanan's hypothesis?
Actually this is quite old news and is based upon Buchanan's rather odious neo-isolationist book published in 2005. There have been numerous threads wasting time discussing his bizarre world view, but I don't see much point in rehashing it yet again. The "analysis" and conclusions are about what one would expect from a grade schooler attempting to shock his teacher for a lark. :roll:

Rich
pzrmeyer2

Re: facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by pzrmeyer2 »

Actually this is quite old news and is based upon Buchanan's rather odious neo-isolationist book published in 2005. There have been numerous threads wasting time discussing his bizarre world view, but I don't see much point in rehashing it yet again. The "analysis" and conclusions are about what one would expect from a grade schooler attempting to shock his teacher for a lark.

Rich
other than your snide ad-hominum commentary, care to contribute any solid information that refutes his "odious" book and his "bizarre world view" , or is your opinion too nuanced for all of us little people to understand?
Rich
Associate
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2002 9:36 am
Location: Somewhere Else Now

Re: facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by Rich »

pzrmeyer2 wrote:other than your snide ad-hominum commentary, care to contribute any solid information that refutes his "odious" book and his "bizarre world view" , or is your opinion too nuanced for all of us little people to understand?
Snide? Really? It was a factual commentary.

Buchanan's remarks are not new, they are four years old.
They have been discussed extensively before at AHF, Tanknet, and soc.history.war.world-war-wii, and numerous others...I think there was a thread here as well?
What part of my remarks were ad hominem? Buchanan's book argues that World War II was unneccessary and against the interests of the United States. He uses that "example" to show why the US should now return to isolationaism. I find that odious. Where is the argumentem ad hominem?

But if you could show me all those repeated examples of Hitler negotiating and the Poles rebuffing him, forcing poor Dolfie into negotiating with the Commies, then we might have room for discussion.
pzrmeyer2

Re: facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by pzrmeyer2 »

Rich wrote:
pzrmeyer2 wrote:other than your snide ad-hominum commentary, care to contribute any solid information that refutes his "odious" book and his "bizarre world view" , or is your opinion too nuanced for all of us little people to understand?
Snide?
Really? It was a factual commentary.
aha, in Rich-world, citing no counter examples but using your opinions like "odious" and "bizarre" constitute "facts". got it. other than those, what other facts did you contribute?

Buchanan's remarks are not new, they are four years old.
wow! 4 years old...practically ancient! his book, The Unneccessary War" came out last year. Has it passed the Statute of Limitations to discuss it?
And furthermore, his remarks on the facts that surrounded the ramp up to the war may not be new, but they are being discussed quite openly for practically the first time as folks are starting to reject 70 years of propaganda about "The Good War" and "The War for Democracy" and all that crap.

They have been discussed extensively before at AHF, Tanknet, and soc.history.war.world-war-wii, and numerous others...I think there was a thread here as well?
sorry, but I dont read those sites, and I'm sure many others don't either. Are topics discussed elsewhere not allowed to be disussed with this audience?

What part of my remarks were ad hominem? Buchanan's book argues that World War II was unneccessary and against the interests of the United States. He uses that "example" to show why the US should now return to isolationaism. I find that odious. Where is the argumentem ad hominem?
Ok, guess we can all drop it now becuase you find it odious. I found your shallow commentary without contrary facts odious. So where are we? How about we focus not on Pat's "bizarre world view or your odious opinion of staying out of modern conflicts not in the US national interest but instead focus on the central points Pat made about the start of the German-Polish War?
But if you could show me all those repeated examples of Hitler negotiating and the Poles rebuffing him, forcing poor Dolfie into negotiating with the Commies, then we might have room for discussion.
see Ribbentrop's offer to Lipski, 24 Oct 38. See Hitler's meeting with Jozef Beck, 5 Jan 39 for starters.
Njorl
Contributor
Posts: 370
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:26 am
Location: Poland

Re: facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by Njorl »

pzrmeyer2 wrote:No, it wasnt. But it was Poland that refused to allow the people of the city to vote on it and it was Poland who exterted pressure on the League of Nations to return th ecity to Germany. Is there any doubt that a plebicite would have rsulted in the overwhelming desire of Danzigers to return to German control?
I doubt that as well.
pzrmeyer2 wrote:I dont know, and neither do you.
Neither does Mr Buchanan. He simply produces a hypothesis - the outcome is like this, thus it was bad, end of topic. He does not produce a scenario of what could have happened instead ie. in case of lack of alliance between Poland and UK and lack of declaration of war on III Reich on September 3rd 1939. We have nothing to compare WW2 with, so IMHO Mr Buchanan's article is quite worthless.
pzrmeyer2 wrote:Was it worth 50+ million lives and the entire destruction of many of Europe's cities, not to mention the past 60+ years of enormous societal changes in wesrern civilization? Who would have invaded Albania and Greece? certainly not Germany. Was Poland better off resisting Germany and losing 6+ million of its own citizens (including Jews) and seeing Warsaw raised to the ground? Compare those losses to Prague and the Czechs.

Makes me wonder.
I intentionally did not attribute invasion of Albania, Greece and Yugoslawia to any country, yet you came up with Germany... What makes you so sure they would not have been invaded by Italy and/or III Reich? After all III Reich did invade Yugoslavia.

What about societal changes in Middle and Eastern Europe? Were the Czechs happy under German rule? What would Czechs decide had they known what would happen? Should have the Poles be happy? Maybe US would be better off now had the Colonies not revolt against the Crown?

Was it worth? I don't know. Indeed, maybe I would be better-off now, parading in brown shirt with torches, singing "Die Fahne Hoch ..." - provided I had an occasion to be on this world :wink: But seriously, my Grandma could have spent rest of her life working for 'Bauer' in Bayern... Plus I'm said to have bit of German blood in my veins, but it is also possible I have Jewish one too - what then?

I get a feeling that Mr Buchanan sees nothing bad in III Reich's aggresive politics and brutal Bismarckian diplomacy - after all:
Mr Buchanan wrote:Hitler did not want a war with Poland. (...) Nor did he want war with a Britain he admired and always saw as a natural ally.

Nor did he want war with France, or he would have demanded the return of Alsace.
So how come the war did happen? Anyone care to explain? And please don't tell me that Polish obstruction forced Hitler to start war and invade Poland...

If he really was only after Danzig and ex-territorial line across The Corridor why did he conquer all Poland and strike a deal with the Soviets?

Regards,
Michal Jungiewicz
"Always be ready to speak your mind and a base man will avoid you" W. Blake, Proverbs of Hell
pzrmeyer2

Re: facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by pzrmeyer2 »

calm yourself, Michal. Neither I nor it seems Mr Buchanan is interested in what if scenarios, just the facts behind the decisions that ultimately led to world war and a cost of over 50 million lives. I'm sure you think it was well worth it so Poland could claim infinite soverignty over the always Polish city of Gdansk.

What about societal changes in Middle and Eastern Europe? Were the Czechs happy under German rule? What would Czechs decide had they known what would happen? Should have the Poles be happy? Maybe US would be better off now had the Colonies not revolt against the Crown?
Actually, I'd be happy to discuss my opinions on "Czech happiness" under German rule.How many Czechs died in the war up to that point? How many of them had good paying jobs working for the Germans, and for the first time had Bismarckian social benefits? Ever wonder why the Allies saw fit to have Heydrich assassinated? It certainly wasnt to put a stop to his "butchery".
If he really was only after Danzig and ex-territorial line across The Corridor why did he conquer all Poland and strike a deal with the Soviets?
ummm.....I thought PJB said it quite succinctly: "Repeatedly, Hitler tried to negotiate Danzig. Repeatedly, the Poles rebuffed him. Seeing the Allies courting Josef Stalin, Hitler decided to cut his own deal with the detested Bolsheviks and settle the Polish issue by force." get it now? (and it wasnt "all Poland" just the half the Soviets didnt conquer.)
So how come the war did happen? Anyone care to explain? And please don't tell me that Polish obstruction forced Hitler to start war and invade Poland...
Well...if you're not willing to accept that fact, there is not much to discuss. Why don't you grab a nice pillow and a blanky and I'll tell you a fairy tale about how an inhuman devil with horns and a tail quite irrationally took over and brainwashed a country and tried to conquer the whole wide world until the goodguys stopped him and everyone lived happily ever after?
phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by phylo_roadking »

Why don't you grab a nice pillow and a blanky and I'll tell you a fairy tale about how an inhuman devil with horns and a tail quite irrationally took over and brainwashed a country and tried to conquer the whole wide world until the goodguys stopped him and everyone lived happily ever after?
You're going to read him something from Mein Kampf??? :shock: :D
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
pzrmeyer2

Re: facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by pzrmeyer2 »

phylo_roadking wrote:
Why don't you grab a nice pillow and a blanky and I'll tell you a fairy tale about how an inhuman devil with horns and a tail quite irrationally took over and brainwashed a country and tried to conquer the whole wide world until the goodguys stopped him and everyone lived happily ever after?
You're going to read him something from Mein Kampf??? :shock: :D
isnt that what you read to your little ones at bedtime Phylo? :wink:
phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by phylo_roadking »

I'm afraid the only literature MY "little ones " are interested in is whether it says cod, pilchard or prawn on the tin.... :D
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
Njorl
Contributor
Posts: 370
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:26 am
Location: Poland

Re: facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by Njorl »

pzrmeyer2 wrote:calm yourself, Michal. Neither I nor it seems Mr Buchanan is interested in what if scenarios, just the facts behind the decisions that ultimately led to world war and a cost of over 50 million lives. I'm sure you think it was well worth it so Poland could claim infinite soverignty over the always Polish city of Gdansk.
I am calm, I just want some answers. If he's not interested in what if scenarios on this matter then I'm not interested in anything he writes about it, I'm afraid.
pzrmeyer2 wrote:Actually, I'd be happy to discuss my opinions on "Czech happiness" under German rule.How many Czechs died in the war up to that point? How many of them had good paying jobs working for the Germans, and for the first time had Bismarckian social benefits? Ever wonder why the Allies saw fit to have Heydrich assassinated? It certainly wasnt to put a stop to his "butchery".
I'm not interested in your opinions on "Czech happiness" - I'd rather ask Czechs themselves.
pzrmeyer2 wrote:
So how come the war did happen? Anyone care to explain? And please don't tell me that Polish obstruction forced Hitler to start war and invade Poland...
Well...if you're not willing to accept that fact, there is not much to discuss. Why don't you grab a nice pillow and a blanky and I'll tell you a fairy tale about how an inhuman devil with horns and a tail quite irrationally took over and brainwashed a country and tried to conquer the whole wide world until the goodguys stopped him and everyone lived happily ever after?
Yes, please. I have my blanket ready.

Picture this: thug orders you to give him your wallet, you refuse, he still wants to rob you, and several friends of yours help you defend. Then the thug reaches for a gun and gunfight begins. The outcome is, that several people are dead.
Now the question - who is to be blamed for their deaths?

Regards,
Michal Jungiewicz
"Always be ready to speak your mind and a base man will avoid you" W. Blake, Proverbs of Hell
pzrmeyer2

Re: facts you wont find on the History Channel

Post by pzrmeyer2 »

well...if you cant stick to facts and want to argue only "what if" scenarios, then I suggest reading sci-fi type novels instead of studying history. I'm more interested in objective truths, not the ethno-nationalist bullheaded pride so common to Poles and Russians who can never quite find anything at fault with their own countries.
I'm not interested in your opinions on "Czech happiness" - I'd rather ask Czechs themselves.
gee, think you'll get honest, informed, factual answers there?

Picture this: thug orders you to give him your wallet, you refuse, he still wants to rob you, and several friends of yours help you defend. Then the thug reaches for a gun and gunfight begins. The outcome is, that several people are dead.
Now the question - who is to be blamed for their deaths?

completely irrelevent. How about wrongly expelled property owner wants his house back. current occupants refuse to give back what they wrongfully took peacefully, so property owner calls his blackbelt qualified big brother, who beats the living shite out of occupier/thieves. now thats a more fitting scenario.
Post Reply