Hi all,
I can't recall where I read this story in this web and I hope any readers who can help to jog my mind. During a reprisal action against civilians (I can't recall where was the location) by the Wehrmacht, a group of civilians including old men, women were about to be shot. A German soldier refused to partake in the firing squad and was seen to removed his helmet and join the group of civilians that were about to be shot. There was a series of photographs taken which show the German soldier walking towards the soon-to-be executed group of civilians.
Could anyone clarify this story?
Thanks for many help
Panzermahn
A Geman soldier removes his helmet
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- Doktor Krollspell
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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet
Hello Panzermahn!
Could this be the photograph that you're asking of?
In that case, this photograph has been discussed before (a somewhat heated discussion...) so follow the link for source etc. etc.
viewtopic.php?f=62&t=15847
Regards,
Krollspell
Could this be the photograph that you're asking of?
In that case, this photograph has been discussed before (a somewhat heated discussion...) so follow the link for source etc. etc.
viewtopic.php?f=62&t=15847
Regards,
Krollspell
"Wie es eigentlich gewesen ist"
Leopold von Ranke (1795-1886)
Leopold von Ranke (1795-1886)
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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet
Hi Doktor Krollspell
Thank you very much your knowledgeable reply (as always!). I think the description by forum member Nero most probably the one that I read last time. The photo you poted actually fits very closely to Nero's description. But i remember it was mentioned that there were a series of photographs taken regarding this incident. Do you have the series of the photographs on this just a single photo by itself?
Thanks, Herr Doktor :)
Panzermahn
Thank you very much your knowledgeable reply (as always!). I think the description by forum member Nero most probably the one that I read last time. The photo you poted actually fits very closely to Nero's description. But i remember it was mentioned that there were a series of photographs taken regarding this incident. Do you have the series of the photographs on this just a single photo by itself?
Thanks, Herr Doktor :)
Panzermahn
- Doktor Krollspell
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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet
Hello again Panzermahn!
Unfortunately, I have only this one photograph (from the swedish book mentioned in the older thread) but I will keep searching. Surely there must have been many incidents when individual german soldiers must have had severe moral and emotional angst when ordered to perform these kind of "duties". Though it must have been extremely rare that these cases where captured on film/photographs or documented in other ways?
Regards,
Krollspell
Unfortunately, I have only this one photograph (from the swedish book mentioned in the older thread) but I will keep searching. Surely there must have been many incidents when individual german soldiers must have had severe moral and emotional angst when ordered to perform these kind of "duties". Though it must have been extremely rare that these cases where captured on film/photographs or documented in other ways?
Regards,
Krollspell
"Wie es eigentlich gewesen ist"
Leopold von Ranke (1795-1886)
Leopold von Ranke (1795-1886)
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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet
Hi Dr. Krollspell,
Thanks again for your reply. Yes, it would be extremely to find such documentation of German soldiers refusing to obey illegal orders and were executed for it, let alone having photographs to show it. I know a couple of cases where German soldiers and officers refusing to execute civilians, captured commandos, but it is not known that those German soldiers/officers were executed for it.
Panzermahn
Thanks again for your reply. Yes, it would be extremely to find such documentation of German soldiers refusing to obey illegal orders and were executed for it, let alone having photographs to show it. I know a couple of cases where German soldiers and officers refusing to execute civilians, captured commandos, but it is not known that those German soldiers/officers were executed for it.
Panzermahn
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Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet
Back in the early 1970s I saw a film of a renactment of this incident. The scene was very much like the photograph above. The same background and placement of the soldiers and other people in it. I cant recall the title of the film & vaguely recall it was part of some sort of instruction on moral questions.
Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet
Hello did some looking around and found this it was a real incident there are 2 monuments to joseph schultz.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... 493&page=5
There are more photos and eyewitness video.
Schultz
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... 493&page=5
There are more photos and eyewitness video.
Schultz
"There ain't no sanity clause" The Damned
Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet
There is an incident mentioned in After The battle number 56 "the ambush of SS General Rauter". 263 were shot as a reprisal for this attack in Holland. One site at De Woeste Hoeve where the ambush on Rauter took place contains a memorial to 117 patriots murdered by the German usurper. However, it appears that there were 116 dutch and a German, Obrwachtmeister Helmut Seijffards refused to take part in the shooting and was himself executed and buried alongside the 116 Dutchmen. One thing this does throw up is the question; could a German opt out of shooting civilians with no comebacks. This seems to suggest no. However the timing of the incident ( march 1945) could have a bearing on this.
Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet
If I recall correctly, "our" HaEn saw the aftermath of one of these March '45 Rauter reprisals as he was enroute back to Don Bosco kaserne after making a messenger run. He made a disparaging remark about the executions and ended up on charges, then "volunteered" to be assigned to Ustuf. Auke Pattist's "Himmelsfahrtkommando" as a panzerjäger.joefraser wrote:There is an incident mentioned in After The battle number 56 "the ambush of SS General Rauter". 263 were shot as a reprisal for this attack in Holland. One site at De Woeste Hoeve where the ambush on Rauter took place contains a memorial to 117 patriots murdered by the German usurper. However, it appears that there were 116 dutch and a German, Obrwachtmeister Helmut Seijffards refused to take part in the shooting and was himself executed and buried alongside the 116 Dutchmen. One thing this does throw up is the question; could a German opt out of shooting civilians with no comebacks. This seems to suggest no. However the timing of the incident ( march 1945) could have a bearing on this.
HaEn ... did I remember correctly?
--Guy
Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet
Hi Guy,
ALMOST !
I was on a return trip to Airfield "Deelen" where we had been transferred to. And I had been re-assigned as regimental kradmelder, also called "krad-rad-fuss-oder bauch melder", By that time Don Bosco was 'home to a kraftfahrer schule, soon to be overrun by allied forces.
Upon arrival I must have looked "kind of out of it", and the Stubaf who I had to report to, asked me why.
My answer did not sit very well with him, and he almost got a stroke of anger. About an hour later i was given the choice: "Flying courtmartial" at that time mostimes garanteeing the firing squad, or "Volunteering " for the Panzerjagd commando laughingly called 'himmelfahrt or toteswunsch kommando" becaue we were supposed to go into, and behind enemy lines and blow up their panzers, and/or create as much havoc as we could, (and try not to be caught in the act)).
Oh well, lots of water through-under the bridge, and a long time ago.
HN
ALMOST !
I was on a return trip to Airfield "Deelen" where we had been transferred to. And I had been re-assigned as regimental kradmelder, also called "krad-rad-fuss-oder bauch melder", By that time Don Bosco was 'home to a kraftfahrer schule, soon to be overrun by allied forces.
Upon arrival I must have looked "kind of out of it", and the Stubaf who I had to report to, asked me why.
My answer did not sit very well with him, and he almost got a stroke of anger. About an hour later i was given the choice: "Flying courtmartial" at that time mostimes garanteeing the firing squad, or "Volunteering " for the Panzerjagd commando laughingly called 'himmelfahrt or toteswunsch kommando" becaue we were supposed to go into, and behind enemy lines and blow up their panzers, and/or create as much havoc as we could, (and try not to be caught in the act)).
Oh well, lots of water through-under the bridge, and a long time ago.
HN
joined forum early spring of 2002 as Haen- posts: legio :-)
Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think !
Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think !
Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet
Hello HaEn,
Thanks for correcting me about Don Bosco. Speaking of which ....
I found it HERE. I don't read Dutch, but it looks like the school was purchased by VODW Marketing and is their HQ!! Their address is:
Dodeweg 6
3832 RC Leusden, Netherlands
So, enter that address into the Google Map search engine and find your old stomping grounds:
Link HERE
Zoom in on the map and you get a pretty good idea of the new grounds!
Cheers!
--Guy
Thanks for correcting me about Don Bosco. Speaking of which ....
I found it HERE. I don't read Dutch, but it looks like the school was purchased by VODW Marketing and is their HQ!! Their address is:
Dodeweg 6
3832 RC Leusden, Netherlands
So, enter that address into the Google Map search engine and find your old stomping grounds:
Link HERE
Zoom in on the map and you get a pretty good idea of the new grounds!
Cheers!
--Guy
Last edited by ghp95134 on Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet
Don Bosco Kaserne through the ages:
1944
1980s (??)
2000:
--Guy
1944
1980s (??)
2000:
--Guy
Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet
The top photo was taken at a swearing in cermony. Lft Front, Stubaf Paul Helle; Right front (if I am not mistaken) Ustuf Nauman, who would hold the sword. Behind him I seem to regonize O.GR.F. Hans Rauter. The others are too vague to recognize, but usually on an ocassion as this, Gr.F. Demelhuber was also present.
The next phot shows the delivery and comkmon man entrance. The Cook, and Food supply U.Führers were stationed here. There also used to be large drill field where yours truly did a lot of "hinlegen ' - äuf marsch marsch" (hit the deck and run.
Most if not all of the other building were not there, instead there were several wooden military barracks.
Oh those "good"(sic) rotten old days
HN
The next phot shows the delivery and comkmon man entrance. The Cook, and Food supply U.Führers were stationed here. There also used to be large drill field where yours truly did a lot of "hinlegen ' - äuf marsch marsch" (hit the deck and run.
Most if not all of the other building were not there, instead there were several wooden military barracks.
Oh those "good"(sic) rotten old days
HN
joined forum early spring of 2002 as Haen- posts: legio :-)
Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think !
Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think !
Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet
Hello HaEn,haen2 wrote:... Right front (if I am not mistaken) Ustuf Nauman, who would hold the sword.
The right front might be Ustuf Nauman, but the officer who held the sword is none other than (I firmly believe) Hstuf Ziegler. There is a photo in Marc Rikmenspoel's book, Soldiers of the Waffen SS: Many Nations, One Motto showing this part of the ceremony with Don Bosco in the background --the Hstuf holding the sword is wearing the Finnish Frontkaempfer badge .... I think Hstuf Ziegler was one of the few Germans who had that award. I've compared the photos of that Hstuf with those of Hstuf Ziegler when he was an SA Ustuf. I am mostly sure it is the same man.
Anyway, I am writing from Ft. Huachuca, Arizona (official travel) and do not have the book with me. However, when I return to my office during the week of 10/14 I will scan the image and submit it for your confirmation.
Kind regards,
--Guy Power
Re: A Geman soldier removes his helmet
Moderator,
I have inadvertently hijacked this thread. Is it possible to move my posts to a new thread .... perhaps to HaEn's??
My sincere apologies to the thread's author!
--Guy
I have inadvertently hijacked this thread. Is it possible to move my posts to a new thread .... perhaps to HaEn's??
My sincere apologies to the thread's author!
--Guy