5. Panzer Division on 13 July 1943

[Igorn]

Gents,

On the Russian military forum I got some iformation about the tank losses of 5th Panzer Division on 13th July 1943 when during unsuccessful assault and consequent retreat the division lost in one day 40-50 tanks as the write-off (total losses). What is known about these combats from the German side. I wonder if somebody knows exact location and place of this combat and any source from German side.

Thanks for information.

Best Regards from Russia,

[Martin Block]

Hello Igorn,

the battle is described on pages 272-274 in "Die Geschichte der 5. Pz.Div. 1938 bis 1945" by Gen.Lt. a.D. Anton Detlev v. Plato. It took place on the morning of 13.7.1943 on the northern slopes of a terrain feature called Höhe 243,9 by the Germans next to a village called Nikitskoje (German spelling).

The Russians had broken through the lines of the 211. and 293. Inf.Div. on the 12.7.1943 and the 5. Pz.Div. had been subordinated to LIII. A.K. to plug the gap. The division launched the first counterattack on the afternoon of that day with limited success. Suffering 150 dead, wounded and missing the division claimed 14 enemy tanks destroyed. Pz.Rgt. 31 did not lose any tanks that day. Most likely some were damaged but no figures are given in the book.

This changed dramatically on the next day. Pressed by army command the 5. Pz.Div. launched an ill-prepared frontal counterattack from the area of Nikitskoje/Höhe 243,9 in generally northern direction in the very early hours of 13.7.1943. The exact figure is not given, but Pz.Rgt. 31 moved out with close to 70 tanks. It was still dark when the tanks began rolling. There seems to have been little or at least insufficient battlefield reconnaissance because when the sun came up the Germans suddenly found themselves faced with very strong Russian tank forces at 500 - 600 meters distance and in the ensuing tank vs. tank duel Pz.Rgt. 31 lost about 40 tanks in less than an hour. A member of the regiment described the July 13th, 1943 as the worst day of the whole campaign in Russia. The accompanying Panzergrenadiere also paid a heavy price. On that fateful day 5. Pz.Div. lost a total of 126 dead, 536 wounded, and 315 missing.

For the period 12. - 14.7.193 Pz.Rgt. 31 reported the loss of 45 tanks (total write-offs) while claiming 123 enemy tanks and 12 anti-tank guns destroyed. During this time the regiment was engaged in the general area Nikitskoje - Cholmitschi - Dudorowo (German spelling). Igorn, would it be possible for you to establish the Russian tank units that fought against Pz.Rgt. 31 and their actual losses?

Type of tanks used by Pz.Rgt. 31 in July 1943:
German records show that on 10.7.1943 the regiment had 17 Pz. III (7,5cm L/24), 10 Pz. IV (L/43), 66 Pz. IV (L/48), 9 Bef.Pz. III on hand.
By 31.7.1943 these figures had been reduced to 6 Pz. III (7,5cm L/24), 3 Pz. IV (L/43), 30 Pz. IV (L/48), 8 Bef.Pz. III.

Since no replacement tanks were delivered during July 1943 one can easily calculate the losses to 11 Pz. III (7,5cm L/24), 7 Pz. IV (L/43), 36 Pz. IV (L/48), 1 Bef.Pz. III = 55 tanks of which 40+ were suffered on that fateful 13.7.1943.

Regards from Germany

Martin Block

[Igorn]

Martin,

Thanks for your excellent post! This is exactly kind of information I was looking for. Some information from the Russian side from the Combat report of the Soviet Western Front Staff to the Head of the Soviet General Staff Number 198 of 13th July 1943

"1. The troops of the left flank of the Front on July 12 and 13th broke through the enemy's defense line on the 20 kilometers front and 25 kilometers depths. In the course of 2 days combats Soviet troops defeated 293th, 211th infantry division and 5th panzer division...

Eleventh (11) Guards Army. Since morning after artillry barrage army troops continued assault. During the day, while repulsing counter-attacks of German tanks and panzergrenadiers, our troops developed offensive on the western, south-western, south and south-eastern directions and by 18.00 assaulting units on the army's flanks advanced from 6 to 9 kilometers and reached Ozeri, Mal. Vjazovenka, Svoboda. On the left flank our troops captured Marino, Slobodka, Dolgoe, Debri, Durgenevo. At the center smashed enemy from the forified strongpoints Stariza, Ulyanovoe and by the end of the day consequently captured Medinstevo, Dudorovo, Senichkin, Almazovo, Lomna, Svetly Verkh and Krapivna and during two days adnaced by 25 kilometers in depth.

For one day (13th July) army units captured 120 soldiers and officers as POW, 45 guns, 30 mortarts, considerable number of machine-guns, rifles and ammunition; destroyed and burnt up to 45 tanks, shot down 4 enemy's aircrafts..."

There is some more info on this on: http://zhurnal.lib.ru/t/tonina_o_i/panz ... t_10.shtml

Best Regards from Russia,

[Igorn]

Martin, on the same Russian Military forum I got information that another case similar to the destruction of 40 tanks of 5. panzer division happened in March 1942 with 23th panzer division when in one combat the division lost 50 tanks as the wite-off and 6 tanks disabled from the fire of the Soviet anti-tank guns. Did you hear anything about this?

Best Regards from Russia,

[Martin Block]

Sorry Igorn, can't help you with that one. All I can say is that there is no such incident mentioned in the rather detailed divisional history of the 5. Pz.Div.. During March 1942 the 5. Pz.Div. served under V. A.K., 4. Pz.Armee, H.Gr. Mitte. I don't have any records from that time period, so I can't give you any figures about tank losses. The tanks of Pz.Rgt. 31 are hardly mentioned at all during that period of time and if so there's always only talk about a handfull of tanks, not much more as about company strenght. Appears to me that because of the poor weather conditions with heavy snow Pz.Rgt. 31 was not able to muster that many tanks at any given time.

The 23. Pz.Div. arrived from France only in late March/early April 1942 and according to its divisional history fought its first major battle a little later on 12./13.5.1942 northeast of Charkow.

Could it be a confusion of units anyway? The history of the 5. Pz.Div. during Feb/March 1942 mentions the 23. Inf.Div. several times!

Martin Block

[Igorn]

Martin,

I think you are right and there was a confusion of units. I will also cross-check this information on the Russian military forum.

Best Regards from Russia,

[von Salza]

Hi Martin & Igorn,

Igorn, would it be possible for you to establish the Russian tank units that fought against Pz.Rgt. 31 and their actual losses?

Martin, I don't unfortunately have details of the losses for this engagement but some thoughts on the units involved, maybe Igorn could supply some figures on losses for you.

As Igorn has already stated the attack on 12/07/43 came from the 11th Guards Army, OOB is as follows;

11th Guards Army - Lt Gen I Kh Bagramian

8th Guards Rifle Corps - Maj Gen P F Malyshev
11th Guards Rifle Division - Maj Gen I F Fediun'kin
26th Guards Rifle Division - Maj Gen N N Korzhenevsky
83rd Guards Rifle Division - Maj Gen Ia S Vorob'ev

16th Guards Rifle Corps - Maj Gen A V Lapshov (KIA on 13/07/43)
1st Guards Rifle Division - Maj Gen N A Kropotin
16th Guards Rifle Division - Maj Gen P G Shafranov
31st Guards Rifle Division - Col I K Shcherbin
169th Rifle Division - Maj Gen Ia F Eremenko

36th Guards Rifle Corps - Maj Gen A S Ksenefontov
5th Guards Rifle Division - Col N L Soldatov
18th Guards Rifle Division - Col M N Zavodovsky
84th Guards Rifle Division - Maj Gen G B Peters

11th Guards Army Tank & SPG units
10th Guards Tank Bgde - Col A R Burlyga
29th Guards Tank Bgde - Col S I Tokerov
43rd Guards Tank Bgde - Col M P Lukashev
213th Tank Bgde - Lt Col V S Gaev
2nd Guards Separate Heavy Tank Reg - Col M F Kutuzov
4th Guards Separate Tank Reg
1453rd Self Propelled Artillery Reg (152mm)

On hand strength returns: 268 Tanks & 12 SPGs

Attached forces to 11th Guards Army included

1st Tank Corps - Maj Gen V V Butkov
89th Tank Bgde - Col K N Bannikov
117th Tank Bgde - Lt Col A S Voronkov
159th Tank Bgde - Col S P Khaidukov
44th Motorised Rifle Bgde
1437th Self Propelled Artillery Reg (85mm)

On hand strength returns: 168 Tanks & 16 SPGs

5th Tank Corps - Maj Gen M S Sakhno
24th Tank Bgde - Col V S Sytnik (KIA 17/07/43)
41st Tank Bgde - Col S I Alaev
70th Tank Bgde - Col S V Kuznetsov (KIA 15/07/43)
5th Motorised Rifle Bgde
1435th Self Propelled Artillery Reg (85mm)
731st Separate Anti Tank Artillery Btn
277th Mortar Reg

On hand strength returns: 168 Tanks & 16 SPGs

Personnel Losses for the 11th Guards Army (incl attached units) 12/07-30/07/43 were;

12,768 Irrevocable
38,513 Medical
51,281 Total

11th Guards Army and supporting units were to spearhead the Northern arm of the Orel Operation, its goal to attack southward, east of Zhizdra to sever the Briansk-Orel rail line near Karachev and isolate and destroy the German forces around Orel, in conjunction with forces from the Briansk and Central fronts attacking from the east and south.

Bagramian concentrated 59,777 men, 615 Tanks & SPGs and almost 3000 Guns & Mortars in his 16km penetration sector alone and had made extensive efforts to conceal his intentions. German intelligence seriously underestimated the strength of the forces in Bagramian's group. German intelligence had failed to identify a full half of the Guards Rifle formations and failed to detect the forward deployment of both the 1st & 5th Tank Corps.

At 3.30am 12/07/43 Soviet Artillery opened its offensive with a 2 hour 40 minute barrage that ripped up the German tactical defence zone. During the last 10 minutes of the barrage forward Rifle Battalions of the the first echelon Rifle Divisions moved into the assault positions accompanied by Tank Companies from the Army Tank Brigades and Regiments.

The 8th Guards Rifle Corps & 36th Guards Rifle Corps six Guards Rifle Divisions were the first echelon in the assault of 12/07/43. They attacked on a 16km wide assault zone at the junction between the German 211th & 293rd Infantry Divisions, smashing two Infantry regiments they brushed the defenders aside and with it the first defensive belt.

On the afternoon of the 12/07/43 Bagramian introduced his second echelon, 16th Guards Rifle Corps to attempt to break through the second defensive zone. The German 5th Panzer Division slowed the attack late in the afternoon and Bagramian immediately introduced his mobile exploitation force to attempt to counter the German armoured resistance. He introduced the 5th Tank Corps and by nightfall had advanced another 10 kms and reached Ul'ianov, in the heart of the German second defensive belt. Here the 5th Tank Corps was halted by the 5th German Panzer Division and forced the Tank Corps to prepare a deliberate assault the next morning.

I presume the Germans pre-empted this assault judging by the information you have already posted. The next day the 1st Tank Corps wasn't actually committed until 14.30pm, so the action that took place at dawn on 13/07/43 was by my guess with units of Maj Gen Sakhno's 5th Tank Corps. Any of the 11th Guards Army Tank units I think would have still been fighting at the point of penetration or mopping up and had not advanced as far as Ul'ianov, although that's only my opinion and I suppose we couldn't discount them from the engagement, but I think it highly unlikely. Its also worth noting here, that over the course of the next 4 days 2 of the 5th Corps Tank Bgde Commanders were KIA, which probably stands as a testament to the ferocity of the fighting.

I would have liked to pin it down to a Brigade but I'm afraid I only have info at the Operational level and not the Tactical, sorry.

Hope this helps anyway.

Regards

David

[Martin Block]

David,

Thanks a lot for your detailed post about the composition of the opposing force. From my German source I so far learned only about 'hundreds of tanks'. Very informative to have more concrete figures now!

Martin Block

[Panzeralex]

Some additional info:

13.7 on Medynzevo, Stariza, Obuhovo, Ulyjanovo 1-st, 2-nd began offensive 8 Guard Rifle Corps (with 43 Guard Tank Brigade and 2 Guard tank Regiment), 31 Guard Rifle Division with 29 Guard Tank brigade and 16 Guard Rifle Corps at support 5 Tank Corps. At 14.30 from site Stariza-Ulyjanovo in a direction on Medynzevo has been entered 1 Tank Corps. In interaction with 1 Tank Corps, 10 Guard Tank Brigade and 1 Guard Rifle Division by the evening of day have seized Medynzevo-Dudorovo. After that advance continued in southern direction with 11 Guard Rifle Division, 83 Guard Rifle Division and 5 Tank Corps.

During July, 12-13th divisions 11Guard Army have advanced on 10-23 km, having put serious losses 211, 293 I.D. and 5 Pz.D..

P.S. 13.7. 5 Pz D was fight not with only Russian 5 Panzer Corps, but and with some Independent Tank Brigades and Regiments.

And I didn't have info about Russian forces losses, but know something for 5 Tank Corps, for example, 70 Tank Brigade lost for 12-14 July:
16 T-34 - destroyed
9 T-34 damaged
1 T-34 damaged on mines
2 T-34 - not in combat
2 T-70 destroyed
1 T-70 damaged
1 T-60 destroyed
43 KIA, 70 WIA.

(on 12.7. 70 T.Brg. lost only 1 tank on mines and no one men.
on 13.7.43 70 T.Brg. lost only 10 tanks (6 destroyed, 4 damaged) and 1 tank T-34 - not in combat and 16 KIA, 48 WIA
on 14.7 70 T.Brg. lost 19 tanks (13 destroyed and 6 damaged) and 1 T-34 - not in combat, and 27 KIA, 22 WIA.)

Best regards
Panzeralex

[von Salza]

Hi Panzeralex,

Great info .

Martin, Panzeralex's post can identify what Russian unit was involved. 31st Guards Rifle Division (of 16th Guards Rifle Corps) supported by 29th Guards Tank Brigade (11th Guards Army organic unit) were the Soviet units attacking Height 243.9 and the village of Nikitskoje.

I found a map from the RKKA site that supports this.

http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/maps ... _12_43.gif

Height 243.9 can be seen about half way down the map towards the left hand side, right in the path of the arrow of advance of 31st Guards Rifle Division. The village of Nikitskoje isn't marked on the map but is situated in the second shaded bar of the advance arrow southwest of hill 243.9.

I don't suppose anyone knows the losses for 31st Guards Rifle Division & 29th Guards Tank Brigade?

Regards

David

[Igorn]

Gents,

There is also good description of this combat happened on 13th July 1943 in the memoirs of the Marshal Ivan Bagramyan, former commander of the Eleventh Guards Army.

Best Regards from Russia,

[Igorn]

A member of the regiment described the July 13th, 1943 as the worst day of the whole campaign in Russia. The accompanying Panzergrenadiere also paid a heavy price. On that fateful day 5. Pz.Div. lost a total of 126 dead, 536 wounded, and 315 missing.

Martin, It is undisputable that July 13th was one of the darkest day for the 5. Panzer Division on the Eastern Front. However, it was not the only dark day. Thus, on July 26th 1944 the 5th Panzer Division with 70 Panther tanks, 55 Pz IVs, as well as the subordinate sPzAbt 505 with 29 Tigers began arriving in Minsk area from Ukraine with the mission of stopping the major armoured onslaught pushing down the Moscow-Minsk highway (mostly 5th Gurads Tank Army and 2nd Tank Corps). According to Steven Zaloga by 8 July 1944 the 5th Panzer Division had been reduced from 125 tanks to 18, and all of the Tigers had been lost. Although according to Schneider sPzAbt 505 still had about 5 Tigers in limiited service use. Both units were ordered to withdraw to the north-west.

Best Regards from Russia,

[von Salza]

Hi Igorn,

Thus, on July 26th 1944 the 5th Panzer Division with 70 Panther tanks, 55 Pz IVs, as well as the subordinate sPzAbt 505 with 29 Tigers began arriving in Minsk area

I don't think this is right. They can't have been reduced to 18 tanks by the 08/07/44 if they only started arriving on July 26th. You must mean June 26th?

According to Steven Zaloga by 8 July 1944 the 5th Panzer Division had been reduced from 125 tanks to 18, and all of the Tigers had been lost

Ah yes, but the first part of the quote from Zaloga that you seemed to omit also claimed that "In a week of fighting, the 5th Panzer Division claimed to have destroyed 295 Soviet armoured vehicles of which 128 were credited to the Tiger tanks of sPzAbt.505."

Can you substantiate these claims?

Regards

David

[Igorn]

Hi Igorn,

Thus, on July 26th 1944 the 5th Panzer Division with 70 Panther tanks, 55 Pz IVs, as well as the subordinate sPzAbt 505 with 29 Tigers began arriving in Minsk area

I don't think this is right. They can't have been reduced to 18 tanks by the 08/07/44 if they only started arriving on July 26th. You must mean June 26th?:

yes, the correct date is June 26th 1944

Ah yes, but the first part of the quote from Zaloga that you seemed to omit also claimed that "In a week of fighting, the 5th Panzer Division claimed to have destroyed 295 Soviet armoured vehicles of which 128 were credited to the Tiger tanks of sPzAbt.505."

Can you substantiate these claims?

You know, I differentiate between the ''claims'' and actual tank losses. Compared to claims of tankers of sPzAbt 505 who were defeated themselves during Bagration and whose claims are not documented and served the purpose to justify thei own significant casualties, their own losses and losses of the 5. Panzer Division are known and documented and were stated by Steven Zaloga.

Best Regards from Russia,

[von Salza]

Hi Igorn,

As one of the few members of the FG community to speak Russian you are ideally suited to be able to provide us with Russian language accounts, details, statistics, etc.

Most of the members of the FG community are genuinely interested in the outcome of battles fought on the Eastern Front as either keen wargamers or amateur historians or just plain enthusiasts. It would go a long way to help the wider FG community and their understanding if someone who has access to these Russian language documents were able to provide us with fairly accurate figures for Soviet units that took part and the losses they suffered in undertaking these endeavors. Is that really too much to ask?

As you have said the German losses are known and documented and most importantly widely available in the West. Sadly the Soviet records are not. I have no doubt that the Soviet losses are documented and recorded, you have just not stated them (like Zaloga has).

Are you able to provide losses for the Soviet 5th Guards Tank Army in their battle with the 5th Panzer Division on the approaches to Minsk? After all that is all I asked for in my post.

Can you substantiate these claims?

Regards

David