Were there ethnic Poles in the Reichswehr?

[NachtJaeger]

Were there any ethnic Poles not VolksDeutsche in or involved with the German military at any point in the war?

[KB Martinsen]

Do you mean the Wehrmacht?

If so, yes there were. One of the major sources of new recruits for the Free Polish forces in Italy was the Wehrmacht.

See here for example:

http://www.polishsoldier.co.uk/2ndcorpus.htm


KB

[Pirx]

It is not first question about that. Many ethnic Poles were in wehrmacht, but they were also enlisted as a volksdeutch (ordnung must sain!). Many of them was even didn't know that they became volksdeutches.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Nachtjaeger,

If the Germans regarded them as Poles, rather than Volksdeutshe, they were not conscripted.

However, as Pirx pointed out, the Germans unilaterally decided that hundreds of thousands of Poles in areas annexed to the Reich were in fact Polonised Germans and so they were awarded Volksdeutsche status whether they liked it or not and were conscripted. This was particularly common in Wehrkreis XX (Danzig-West Preussen) under Gauleiter Forster.

KB Martinsen is right. As early as mid 1942, during the Dieppe raid, the Canadians took four German prisoners back to the UK. It turned out that three of them were actually Poles unwillingly conscripted in this manner. Si

Cheers,

Sid.

[Pirx]

Sid is right.
Forster was in fact checked by special comission sended by Himmler. They noticed that is doing bad, but Forster was defended by Hitler personaly. His Gau had much better economy and gives more recruits than bigger and much more populated neighbour Reichsgau Wartheland Wehrkreis XXI. Gauleiter Arthur Greiser simply deported 650000 Poles to
Generalgouvernement.

another interesting thing was that Poles from wehrmacht that was POWs in allies camps were sent to Polish units in another frontline. Those from Italy were serving in western Europe (Normandy, Belgium and the Netherlands), and former wehrmacht soldiers from western front were sent to Polish forces in Italy. They got new ID (name, birthplace, age and so on). If they were captured by Germans, they were safe, becouse Gramans didn't knows that they were in wehrmacht earlier.

[pzrmeyer2]

However, as Pirx pointed out, the Germans unilaterally decided that hundreds of thousands of Poles in areas annexed to the Reich were in fact Polonised Germans and so they were awarded Volksdeutsche status whether they liked it or not and were conscripted. This was particularly common in Wehrkreis XX (Danzig-West Preussen) under Gauleiter Forster.

this is merely a question, but how many Poles at this time might have been opportunists who found it feasable to suddenly become German for special priviledges/rations/status etc? It was not uncommon in certain time periods for those of mixed ancestry to do so from time to time, depending on power shifts. Is it not possibel that it was true in this instance?

[Njorl]

Hi pzrmeyer2,

You're asking if there were Poles that decided to became Volksdeutsche in exchange for 'special treatment', right? I leave the army thing aside, as you don't mention it.

Eveything is possible - the question is how likely it is. I'm sure there were instances of Poles (Polish citizens in general? or Polish citizens of Polish nationality?) changing colours. Answering the question "How many?" would be hard.

Regards,

MJ

[Pirx]

this is merely a question, but how many Poles at this time might have been opportunists who found it feasable to suddenly become German for special priviledges/rations/status etc?

Who knows?
I guess that most young Poles (most Germans also prefered service in hospital or as warehouse guards in Stralsund) didn't want go to frontline, under fire. But some of them liked "adventure". But even Germans didn't made raports how many had free will to sign Volkslist, and how many was forced.
Oficially all volksdeutsches wanted be Germans, but even Geisler and Himmler didn't believe that Forster found so many volunteers.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Pirx,

How did the Germans treat Polish POWs captured in Italy and Western Europe?

Germany didn't recognise any form of Polish government and, as the Reich had annexed most of pre-war Poland, Polish prisoners taken in Allied uniform were presumably regarded by them as technically Reich subjects.

Cheers,

Sid.

[phylo_roadking]

Sid - apparently not very differently than the rest of the Allies. The Polish officers in Colditz for example had a hard time from stoolpigeons etc., didn't recieve Red Cross parcels....BUT the Germans accorded tham full Geneva Convention rights.

[sid guttridge]

Hi pzrmeyer,

There are always opportunists.

The ethnic division between Germans and Poles was far less clear than Nazi racial ideologues pretended.

Germany had been absorbing Slavs and Balts for centuries as it colonised or recolonised its eastern marches from the Middle Ages. Most Slavic tribes had been completely absorbed, but even today the Wends still exist as a distinct ethnic and liguistic group in east Germany.

After the partition of Poland in the late 18th Century, Prussia began a more systematic programme of assimilation of Poles, aided by the introduction of universal education in the German language. This was so effective that some Slavic-related groups, such as the Masurians in southern East Prussia, voted to remain in Germany in post-WWI referendums.

Furthermore, hundreds of thousands of Poles settled in the Ruhr region of western Germany (reaching nearly a third of the population of one town, I seem to remember), drawn in by the jobs created by the rapid industrialisation of the region in the 19th Century.

The descendants of all these Poles and other Slavs served in the Wehrmacht in large numbers in WWII without obviously displaying any particular disaffection. (One wonders if they were disproportionally Communists in the 1920s?)

However, in the Polish Corridor, which became part of Forster's Gau Danzig-West Preussen in October 1939, there was another Slavic-related group who were not ethnic Poles - the Kashubes. Unlike the neighbouring Mazurians, they had entered Poland after WWI. Forster, something of a pragmatist by comparison with his neighbour and rival Greiser, unilaterally decided, against the advice of Nazi racial "experts", that the Kashubes were, in fact Polonised Germans. It was largely them who were given Volksdeutsch status, regardless of their personal preferences. They proved unwilling conscripts with the consequences already noted in Italy and at Dieppe.

Cheers,

Sid.

[pzrmeyer2]

Hi pzrmeyer,

There are always opportunists.

The ethnic division between Germans and Poles was far less clear than Nazi racial ideologues pretended.

Germany had been absorbing Slavs and Balts for centuries as it colonised or recolonised its eastern marches from the Middle Ages. Most Slavic tribes had been completely absorbed, but even today the Wends still exist as a distinct ethnic and liguistic group in east Germany.

After the partition of Poland in the late 18th Century, Prussia began a more systematic programme of assimilation of Poles, aided by the introduction of universal education in the German language. This was so effective that some Slavic-related groups, such as the Masurians in southern East Prussia, voted to remain in Germany in post-WWI referendums.

Furthermore, hundreds of thousands of Poles settled in the Ruhr region of western Germany (reaching nearly a third of the population of one town, I seem to remember), drawn in by the jobs created by the rapid industrialisation of the region in the 19th Century.

The descendants of all these Poles and other Slavs served in the Wehrmacht in large numbers in WWII without obviously displaying any particular disaffection. (One wonders if they were disproportionally Communists in the 1920s?)

However, in the Polish Corridor, which became part of Forster's Gau Danzig-West Preussen in October 1939, there was another Slavic-related group who were not ethnic Poles - the Kashubes. Unlike the neighbouring Mazurians, they had entered Poland after WWI. Forster, something of a pragmatist by comparison with his neighbour and rival Greiser, unilaterally decided, against the advice of Nazi racial "experts", that the Kashubes were, in fact Polonised Germans. It was largely them who were given Volksdeutsch status, regardless of their personal preferences. They proved unwilling conscripts with the consequences already noted in Italy and at Dieppe.

Cheers,

Sid.

completely agree. As far as the "wends" go , do you not mean the Sorbs?

[sid guttridge]

Hi pzrmeyer,

No. Definitely the Wends. They are still marked on a G1934 German ethnic atlas I have. I thoght the Sorbs have been completely assimilated. I will check.

Cheers.

Sid.

[sid guttridge]

Hi pzrmeyer,

According to Wikipedia (not my favourite source, but convenient) it appears that the Wends and Sorbs are the same people!

Cheers,

Sid.

[sid guttridge]

P.S. If I remember rightly, the Wends are still commemorated for some reason on the Swedish royal coat of arms and on Swedish air force markings. The king of Sweden is styled ".....of the Goths, Wends and Swedes", hence, i seem to recall, the three crowns on various Swedish insignia.

Sid.