E-boats - nein! S-boats - JA!

[Troy Tempest]

Come on boys, this is supposed to be a board of research or a tool to extend our knowledge of the war, we shouldn't still be using terms like E-boats instead of S-boats! It's like military history books and historians STILL using the term Wehrmacht to describe the German Army, instead of Heer. And don't get me started on 'Schmeissers' for MP 38/40's! History buffs - it's time to make a stand!

Troy

[Tom Houlihan]

Troy, I feel your pain! How about the old argument about the Hetzer?

We have 60 odd years of misinformation and improper usage to deal with. Even those of us historians, of whatever degree, have to work through it. I try like hell, but I'm not always successful.

This issue came up for an author whose maps I'm working on now. The solution? Go with the accepted usage, noting that there is conflict over that usage, and fact.

We can work at policing ourselves, and using proper terminology, but it's a slow process. If it's going to take us a while, imagine how long it will take the lay person?

Hell, conventional wisdom still dictates that anyone in a German uniform is a Nazi!

[Troy Tempest]

Troy, I feel your pain! How about the old argument about the Hetzer?

Achtung Tom! What old argument about the Hetzer are you referring to? Speaking of Hetzers, I just finished reading a great little book, Hetzer: Jagdpanzer 38(t) and G-13 by Horst Scheibert, Schiffer ('90). While only the usual Schiffer 48 pages, it has some excellent photos. It goes on to point out that the 'Hetzer' that is on display at the outdoor museum of the Kampftruppenschule 2 of the Bundeswehr in Munster is a fake! The sign at the front says it is an original Hetzer with original colours and markings, but it is actually a G-13 built in Pilsen!

Hell, conventional wisdom still dictates that anyone in a German uniform is a Nazi!

I'm shocked! You mean they aren't?

Troy

[Tom Houlihan]

Achtung Tom! What old argument about the Hetzer are you referring to?

I'll refer you here: http://www.panzerworld.net/facts.html and let you sort it out...

Hell, conventional wisdom still dictates that anyone in a German uniform is a Nazi!

I'm shocked! You mean they aren't?

Ssshhhhhhhh!

[Troy Tempest]

Hey Tom, thanks for the link mate! I'm not jumping ship or anything, but I've already signed up to the Axis History Forum! As for the panzerworld myths of WWII, it certainly has given me plenty to think about. I was aware of some of them, but certainly not all, there just insn't enough hours in the day to spend on the net ..........(my better half is already rolling her eyes!)

Troy

[crolick]

Hmm but why S-boats?! English coded MGB as E-boats and Subs as U-boats. But the correct version should be S-boots and U-boots [not boats!!]

Cheers

[Tiornu]

Yes, and it is heretical to refer to Japanese planes as Zekes, Vals, etc. or to use Latin letters in referring to them at all.
Which is my sledgehammer way of saying this isn't much of an issue.
How about this? Is it better to use the current standard orthography when naming Brazilian ships, or should we use the system that was standard when they commissioned, or should we use the spelling that was official at any given specific date...?

[Troy Tempest]

Hmm but why S-boats?! English coded MGB as E-boats and Subs as U-boats. But the correct version should be S-boots and U-boots [not boats!!]

Yes and no crolick! The English knew full well before WWI that the Germans referred to their subs as U-boots, just as they knew about T-boots, Z-boots etc, so when they christened the U-boots Uboats, they were still remaining true (in an anglisized way) to the official German classification system. I just never understood why the English called S-boats, err, S-boots E-boats! They didn't change M-boats, T-boats, R-boats, U-boats, Z-boats to any other letter, seemingly just S-boats. It took me decades before I discovered that the E signified 'enemy' apparently, although that didn't clear anything up for me, as I figured ALL German Kaiserlichemarine or Kriegsmarine boats were 'enemy' boats. Yes, you raise a good point about using the word 'boat' instead of 'boot', fair enough mate! I do believe that the most important thing though, is to at least get the class of vessel letter correct. It's the same with Daimler or Daimler Benz. It's pronounced Dime-ler, not Dame-ler, yet probably all English speaking countries pronounce it Dame-ler not Dime-ler. Gottlieb Daimler, to my recollection, granted licences to sell his cars in England, and his name somehow became Dameler from then on. Most Amercans, (and Australians) would say Dameler-Chrysler instead of Dimeler-Chrysler, even Chrysler buffs.

I remember growing up in the 60's and we used to say Nestles for Milky Bars and Quick, but now, we say Nest-lay, it took a while, but gentle education can achieve results. I don't agree with Tironu about it being a non-issue though, I don't see anything wrong with at least making an attempt to pronounce foreign words and terms correctly, or as close as us lazy-arse westerners can be bothered to! As for being heretical to call Japanese planes by their Allied name, at least not during and after the war. Most westerners would have had little or no practice with pronouncing the Japanese language, so the Kawanishi Shiden became the George, the Kawasaki Toryu became the Nick, the Hien the Tony, the Hayabuse the Oscar, the Donryu the Helen and the fantastic Hayate the Frank. I do try and use the Japanese terms, but having little or no interaction with Japanese or Japanese speaking people, as do probably most westerners, I don't see the mis-use or non-use of correct Japanese terms as big an issue or even an issue at all compared with the mis-use or non-use of German terms. I feel it is much easier for westerners to pronounce German terms correctly or close enough, than for Japanese terms. I don't know about everybody else on these boards, but I would find it hard to practice Japanese pronounciation, with very little or zero (excuse the pun) Japanese language movies or tv shows or radio or books in my life to assist me in getting it right. Though to be fair, if it wasn't for the Yanks, I'd probably be speaking Japanese today!

Troy

[Tiornu]

"German"? What's that? Oh, you mean "Deutsches"!
I didn't say there's anything wrong with trying to pronounce things "correctly." Instead, I dispute the narrow definition of what is "correct." If you prefer "U-boot" over "U-boat," why should anyone find fault? Or if you prefer it the other way, that's fine, too. "E-boat" strikes me as a provincial, but it still says what it means. By the way, no one knows what the "E" stands for. "Enemy" is simply one of several guesses.
Of course, spelling my screenname correctly is always preferred.
Professional writers often resort to the rules printed in a style manual. In the US, the Chicago handbook is most common. But apart from that, there is no authority to dictate proper usage, and that's probably a good thing.
Here's one for you: should it be Isoroku Yamamoto or Yamamoto Isoroku? The latter is gaining in popularity as being more "correct"--that is, it reflects the Japanese practice of putting the surname first. Okay, but it's also "correct" (by the same standard) to put the rank at the end. Yamamoto Isoroku Admiral. Really? Do we really want to be THAT correct?

[Troy Tempest]

Hi [b]tiornu[/b]! Sorry I got your name wrong , but I think things are getting a little sidetracked, I'm not saying you shouldn't say U-boat or U-boot, I'm just saying you should use the 'U' classification. I only was wondering why the English changed the 'S' classification to 'E', but didn't change any of the other German class identifying letters: M,R,T,U and Z still remained, it seems just the 'S' class was subjected to some unclear change, that's all! Since we all know now that it's 'S' not 'E', we should use 'S'. That's certainly not being pedantic.

As for Japanese names, I agree about putting the last name first, if that's the custom in Asia, no problems. As for rank last, I'm afraid I do think that's going too far. The military would refer to someone by rank alone sometimes, not by surname and rank, so if it's acceptable to refer to someone by rank alone, then the rank should come first, like other titles - Dr, Sir, Count, Prince etc.

[Tiornu]

Hee! If misspelling my name is the worst thing you ever do, someday they'll be calling you Saint Generalderpanzertruppen .
The origins of the "E" will probably remain a mystery forever. Maybe it's like "Long Lance," nickname of the Japanese Type 93 torpedo. Some people have theorized that Samuel Eliot Morison came up with the name himself, but the phrase appears in official Japanese correspondence. Oy! So if someone wants to call it a Long Lance or if he says Type 93, what do I care? As long as he doesn't try applying the name to a torpedo other than the type 93.
Signed,
Tiornu, Esquire (Oo-hoo! Postpositive title!)

[Andy H]

A possible explanation is provided by Dr G Hummelchen in Warship Profile No 31 printed in May 1973

"It appears more likely that the E has some technical connotation applicable to this particular boat and which may have been a term of reference common to contempoary British power boat builders. Just as the British had their specialist speed-boat yards, the then leading German yard was Lurssen. Between the wars with support from the German Navy, Lurssen perfected & introduced into their boats several important new features. One of these was known as the 'Lurssen Effeckt'. Might not the E of the British 'E-Boat' term have originated with the British power-boat specialists, referring specifically to this 'Effeckt'?"

Regards