Arthur "Bomber " Harris.....

[Helmut Von Moltke]

as a troll here is messing up on this thread, it is better to reply to sensible points on this thread instead of to the stupid ones, which would get it locked.

If the Germans or the Japanese had the A bomb do you think they would have hesitated to use it on the Allies,especally when they knew they were going to lose the war?

The point about the Japanese has no support, as they never got as close as Germany did. At that time Germany didn't have enough air power to deliver a bomb to far away capitals, so most likely they would deliver a nuke to a massed Soviet army group. In some articles I have seen the nuke against the Red Army mentioned as a ceratin possibility. It certainly would have discouraged the Red Army to advance so confidently.

Your claim though that the weapons were a product of Hitler and the SS not of Germany or its armies and airforce is simply not true.

I heard somewhere that originally the Heer had a role in rocket design, but the SS took over it, and used KZ prisoners to build them.

K

[phylo_roadking]

Andre, not a myth - but not a "german" raid - or series of them. Ive read Vidal in translation (and its still heavy going) but although he tries his best to attribte "blame" there are a LOT of oddities. At the top is that the raid itslef goes completely against General Mola's standing orders for the prosecution of the war in that area. Backed up with the fact that NO aerial reconnaissance was carried out first, he concludes the order must have come direct from Mola himself i.e. to set aside his standing orders, or direct from Franco. Also, don't forget the ITALIANS are also involved, bombing the town in the first raids of the day, and providing fighter cover during the rest. Given that they were trying at the time to conclude a separate peace agreement with the Basques, theyd not be likely to be party to a "terror" raid per se, either directly involved or by being privy to knowledge of it.

[phylo_roadking]

hit the wrong button there.....
Vidal noted that afterwards, when Franco tried to shift blame on the destruction onto the Basques burning the town as they left, it was HIM doing the blaming, and on the Basques - not the Condor Legion denying, or being blamed. Looking at Franco's own propaganda record, Vidal concluded that that was indicative of Franco issuing the original order. Also, this was the first "overt" direction intervention by German forces in the war, up to this point they had been "officially" neutral. He cluded therefore the Condor Legion ahd been ordered to carry out the attack at such a high level that they were either unable to question OR verify whatever they been told by their own observation, which they were rigorous in doing elsewhere. Only THAT reconnaisance would have shown that the town's population was greatly swollen by refugees from the front on;y ten miles away. Given Goering's postion at Nuremberg on the Spanish Civil War, IF Von Richtofen had booted this up the line for confirmation and approval - he'd have got it in spades. It was certainly Franco's desire to destroy the town, and terrorise the population, and the Condor Legion would have been getting orders from an impeccable source AND confirmation from their own chain of command. Why would they question it? In that position - would you? Or obey orders if your own superiors had confirmed the order? Dont forget foreign inteventionists in any war have the priviledge of TWO chains of command to question and play each other off against.

[phylo_roadking]

Most of the problem with Guernica was - it was the FIRST bombing of its kind, and there were a number of foreign journalists as witnesses at a close distance and then on the scene quickly. So the first information coming out of the event was not a little partisan, given the nature of the reporting of the Civil War there in general. The second problem was this was ALL done and reported against the late 30s popular discussion of Alphonso Douet's work on bombing, and was taken as first confirmation of the theory of terror bombing of civilians....almost blanking discussion of Guernica as a target, and its two munitions factories. Hence any dispassionate discussion afterwards....was taken as approving of a war crime! And that discussion was still on-going, and VERY vitriolic....on the 1st of September 1939......so ever since Guernica has been discussed against a Nazi Germany background, not a Spanish Civil War environment.

[Cott Tiger]

I think we might be overcomplicating the argument. Innocent civilians were deliberately killed by German bombs, falling out of German planes, flown by German pilots.
Who exactly issued the order on the day to destroy Guernica is in the context of this debate largely irrelevant, as are the actual legalities of this gruesome episode in the Luftwaffe’s history.

Please note that I don’t think such issues are irrelevant in their own right or in a wider debate about the Luftwaffe’s involvement in the Spanish Civil War, but I do think to this discussion they could be a red herring.

Regards,

Andre

[Jan-Hendrik]

There was no order "to destroy" Guernica , the stratigical aim was to block the way back for the republican troops and and to avoid that they could make a fortified position out of this town . In our days a Mr.Franks would speak about "colleteral damage" in such case ( I hate such euphemisms , be sure ) .

Jan-Hendrik

[phylo_roadking]

Irrelevant in the sense that we're talking about targeting decisions, propaganda, and responsibility? Technically speaking the Luftwaffe in Spain on that occasion were worse off than, say, Bomber Command crews - who KNEW their targets, knew they were targeting industrial labour populations, and were carrying out their own reconnaisance to ASSIST in that targeting - and assess the damage later; those PR Spitfires saw a LOT. Guernica is always raised in any discussion of terror bombing - but in a way the German pilots there were at the mercy of two sets of authority. And their reputation suffered ever since because of it. Don't forget they were "mercenary" pilots and crew in a civil war - the the outcome was anything but certain at that point; but Turkey in 1922 would certainly have taught them what happens to foreign interventionists on a loosing side. They wouldn't have prejudiced their possible own fate in the way they did had they known all there was to be known. "Only obeying orders" has a bad reputation nowadays...but what if theres TWO sets of agreeing orders?

[Cott Tiger]

There was no order "to destroy" Guernica , the stratigical aim was to block the way back for the republican troops and and to avoid that they could make a fortified position out of this town . In our days a Mr.Franks would speak about "colleteral damage" in such case ( I hate such euphemisms , be sure ) .

Jan-Hendrik

Sorry Jan I don’t follow your line of thinking. The Condor Legion dropped an excessive amount of bombs and incendiaries onto a town, way in excess of any thing that would have been needed to destroy any legitimate periphery targets in or round the town. In essence it was deliberately flattened and civilians deliberately killed.

Do you dispute these facts?

The argument that the civilian deaths were “spillage” or as we now call it “collateral damage”,in the face of the evidence, would appear to be nonesense.

Regards,

Andre

[Cott Tiger]

Phylo,

I just didn’t want to get the debate bogged down in the complexities of command in relation to the Luftwaffe and Condor Legion during the Spanish Civil War

My argument is that their was premeditation to deliberately kill civilians at Guernica and the Luftwaffe were willing and complicit in the process.

Regards,

Andre

[Jan-Hendrik]

If I recall this ones :

- Abendroth, Hans-Henning: Guernica. Ein fragwürdiges Symbol. In: Militärgeschichtliche Mitteilungen 41 (1987) S. 111 bis 126
- Maier, Klaus A.: Guernica 26.4.1937. Die deutsche Intervention in Spanien und der "Fall Guernica" (= Einzelschriften zur militärischen Geschichte des Zweiten Weltkrieges, 17) Freiburg 1977

during that attack on the targets in Guernica no one cared about civilian causualities , but they were simply not the target of this attack . And thats makes , if you are honest to yourself , this whole case comparable with air attacks of our days , where indeed no one cares about the mentioned "collateral damage"

Jan-Hendrik

[Torquez]

Still waiting on any evidence towards Frampol being a "myth".

[Jan-Hendrik]

You brought it in and called it a "Terror attack" , you still failed to present clear evidence for this . As long as you are unable to do so I recommend you to remain calm and play further with the internet



Jan-Hendrik

[Torquez]

I already presented evidence, quote and photos.
Frampol is widely known to be a terror attack, pure exercise of power to see how effective killing of civilians and destruction of towns is by bombing.
You claimed-despite photos, quotes and historically accepted fact, that Frampol is a myth.
Please show evidence that Frampol is a myth.
It is you who made an extraordinary claim, similiar to the one would make that WW2 was made by Poland not Germany.
It is your job to support your extraordinary claim.

[Jan-Hendrik]

I know that this attack was claimed to be a "terror attack" by East German publications , and that these claims have been adapted in Poland , but if you are unable to proove these claims with any primary sources they still are nothing more than unsourced claims ( and you continue to make an ofiara out of you ) ...




Jan-Hendrik

[Torquez]

It falls on you to prove photos and quote from Wolfgang Schreyer: Augen am Himmel are both falsifications and Polish government lies, since that information is posted also on Polish government site regarding the city, and was presented by Polish IPN as one of war crimes made in 1939, in exhibition about German made atrocities in September 1939.

and you continue to make an ofiara out of you

Are you frustrated so that you have to make personal remarks ? Please don't.

I have quote from Wolfgang Schreyer: Augen am Himmel
I have exhibition made by IPN, an goverment institute dedicated to researching atrocities in Poland.
I have statement of Polish government.
I have photos.


Please present sources supporting your claim that Frampol is a myth.
So far you haven't presented any.
Please do.
What sources and historical knowledge has led to you to claim it is a myth.
Surely you had some ?
If you claim they are claims, then surely there is some source you have that claims statements widely regarded as fact are disputable, and presents information portaying why those facts should be treated as claims.
Please be kind to present them.
Or was that remark you made, based on nothing more then your personal preferences towards WW2 history ?
And of course we are now only talking about Frampol.
We haven even begun discussing bombing of Hospitals marked with Red Cross signs on roofs.
Or diplomats in their cars-also with Red Cross painted on their top.
I propose we go over that information after you present your sources on Frampol.