Monte Casino

[Torquez]

And anyway, there is no evidence that the Paratroopers treated their opponents like subhumans.

I was talking about the general perception, since German society believed in ideology of National Socialism. It certainly must have been shocking to average soldier to be defeated by "inferior animals".

On the contrary, great gallantry was shown by both sides. /quote]
Source ? However I wouldn't be surprised though since German soldiers usually acted well in captivity, it was the times they won over Poles or Russians were they were "accidents".

even if it was brought about by Polish troops

Remember that according to National Socialism these were creatures inferior to animals.
Psychological effect of German defeat from Polish hands on German society can't be overlooked.

[Torquez]

Red Poppies on Monte Cassino

D`you see those ruins on the hill-top?
There your foe hides like a rat!
You must, you must, you must
Grab his neck and cast him from the clouds!
And they went, heedless of danger
And they went, to kill and avenge
And they went stubborn as ever,
As always - for honour - to fight.

Refrain:

Red poppies on Monte Cassino
Instead of dew, drank Polish blood.
As the soldier crushed them in falling,
For the anger was more potent than death.
Years will pass and ages will roll,
But traces of bygone days will stay,
And the poppies on Monte Cassino
Will be redder having quaffed Polish blood.

They charged through fire like madmen,
Countless were hit and fell,
Like the cavalry at Samosierra,
Like the men at Rokitno years ago.
They attacked with fury and fire,
And they got there. They climbed to the top,
And their white and scarlet standard
They placed on the ruins `midst clouds.

Refrain:
Red poppies on Monte Cassino ....

D`you see this row of white crosses?
Polish soldiers did honour there wed.
The further you go, the higher,
The more of such crosses youl'l meet.
This soil was won for Poland,
Though Poland is far away,
For Freedom is measured in crosses
When history from justice does stray.

Refrain:
Red Poppies on Monte Cassino...


The song was illegal during Soviet occupation.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

I was talking about the general perception, since German society believed in ideology of National Socialism.

probably the social parts, but not the bad parts, most just turned a blimd eye to that. After all, National Socialiams in 1930s gave them more jobs, etc so most people would prefer more money and a good job than to be caring about unfortunate events. I have a friend who's grandpa was a Pole at Monte Cassino, he didn't hate the German paratroops, in fact he had a lot of respect for them, so why do you act so controary to one of your countrymen?

[Laurent Daniel]

Hi Helmut,
I didn't understood from Torquez post that he was saying that the Polish soldiers hated the German soldiers, he just said (If I got it right) that it must have been a blow to the morale of the German troops when they realised that a Polish unit was able to defeat them, because od the effects of the Nazi propaganda on their perception of the Polish people.

Remember that during those times, racism was a common perception more or less in all western countries, whith degrees, variations and miscellaneous "targets", but common. Do not appreciate that through our 21st century views, nothing to see, another planet almost.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

well, Torquez still has a lot to learn about chivalry and honour in war. I'm sure that a picture of a German and Polish officer saluting each other after a honourable battle at Westerplatte must be a blow to him...... not all German soldiers viewed Poles the way that Torquez thinks.

[Laurent Daniel]

Hi Helmut,
Good one !
I don't know what Torquez will say about that one, but a good one, congrats.

By the way, can a Moderator correct the title of that interesting thread. We are talking about the battle for Monte Cassino here, not about some gambling place

[Helmut Von Moltke]

We are talking about the battle for Monte Cassino here, not about some gambling place

LOL!!!!!

vtw, for Torquez, just in case he think it might be farb or faked, it is Gen. bryg. Henryk Sucharski surrendering to German General Friedrich-Georg Eberhardt. The German General let Sucharski surrender with his sword as a sign of respect for the Polish soldier's bravery. yet, more details against Torquez.

Now, back to Monte Cassino. Found some pictures of Poles at Cassino, it has become a popular subject on this thread now.





the last one is a German propoganda leaflet sent to Poles, maybe someone could translate? thanks

[Laurent Daniel]

Hi Helmut KOP (King of Pix )
The poster is in Polish.
Interesting.
Torques, what does it means?
Any idea when and where it was published?

[Pirx]

it is Gen. bryg. Henryk Sucharski surrendering to German General Friedrich-Georg Eberhardt.

Sucharski was only major. On westerplatte was no more than 200 Polish soldiers. They need no general...

About poster: "Poles, go to Monte Cassino". This probably shows that Poles only could die there, so they should refuse orders...

[Torquez]

well, Torquez still has a lot to learn about chivalry and honour in war. I'm sure that a picture of a German and Polish officer saluting each other after a honourable battle at Westerplatte must be a blow to him...... not all German soldiers viewed Poles the way that Torquez thinks. Very Happy

Phi, every child in Poland knows about the Westerplatte since grade school and the fact that Germans allowed those Polish officers to have sabers with them, and also every child knows that Germans mass murdered tens of thousands of Poles in September alone, because of the Nazi ideology, as well as executing Polish PoWs on regular basis. Westerplatte is an exception. I really find absurd what you are trying to prove, no matter how hard you try you won't change the fact that Nazi ideology was racist and German army comitted mass atrocities in the name of their believes:
A regular scene from September Campaign:

I saw how German soldiers started to shoot the refugees. Most of them were killed or wounded. Among the wounded was a teenage girl, shot in back in such way that her inner organs could be seen. On top of her body a small child was crawling, it looked like 1,5 years old. When I took the child into my arms, one of the German soldiers smashed the head of this baby with his rifle butt. I remember yet another thing, that I will see till I die. One women-Józefa Błochewska from Złoczew-was wounded in her hand. When she started screaming, one of the German soldiers pushed her by force into one of the burning houses. She was burnt alive. I want to mention that German soldiers weren't shooting only at the refugees, about who I told earlier, but to everybody they had seen, on the streets, roads, backyards

robably the social parts, but not the bad parts, most just turned a blimd eye to that.

And that is why 90 % of those sent to concentration camps in Poland till 1941 were sent there due to lists made by German minority ?




PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:06 am Post subject:
Quote:
We are talking about the battle for Monte Cassino here, not about some gambling place


LOL!!!!! Very Happy

vtw, for Torquez, just in case he think it might be farb or faked, it is Gen. bryg. Henryk Sucharski surrendering to German General Friedrich-Georg Eberhardt. The German General let Sucharski surrender with his sword as a sign of respect for the Polish soldier's bravery. yet, more details against Torquez.

Now, back to Monte Cassino. Found some pictures of Poles at Cassino, it has become a popular subject on this thread now. Very Happy

the last one is a German propoganda leaflet sent to Poles, maybe someone could translate?

Poles you are going to Monte Cassino. Germans also shouted thru loud speakers "Remember about Katyn, join us" etc.

[Torquez]

well, Torquez still has a lot to learn about chivalry and honour in war. I'm sure that a picture of a German and Polish officer saluting each other after a honourable battle at Westerplatte must be a blow to him...... not all German soldiers viewed Poles the way that Torquez thinks. Very Happy

Phi, every child in Poland knows about the Westerplatte since grade school and the fact that Germans allowed those Polish officers to have sabers with them, and also every child knows that Germans mass murdered tens of thousands of Poles in September alone, because of the Nazi ideology, as well as executing Polish PoWs on regular basis. Westerplatte is an exception. I really find absurd what you are trying to prove, no matter how hard you try you won't change the fact that Nazi ideology was racist and German army comitted mass atrocities in the name of their believes:
A regular scene from September Campaign:

I saw how German soldiers started to shoot the refugees. Most of them were killed or wounded. Among the wounded was a teenage girl, shot in back in such way that her inner organs could be seen. On top of her body a small child was crawling, it looked like 1,5 years old. When I took the child into my arms, one of the German soldiers smashed the head of this baby with his rifle butt. I remember yet another thing, that I will see till I die. One women-Józefa Błochewska from Złoczew-was wounded in her hand. When she started screaming, one of the German soldiers pushed her by force into one of the burning houses. She was burnt alive. I want to mention that German soldiers weren't shooting only at the refugees, about who I told earlier, but to everybody they had seen, on the streets, roads, backyards

But I won't stop you from believing that it was all Hitler's fault because he was a superhero with the ability to clone himself and comitt all of this massacres himself to the horror of innocent and terririfed German people who only wanted to painted rainbows in their lives.

Btw, from what I recall all efforts to make defenders of Westerplatte meet their former German opponents have failed(there was one that met them but was condemened by others). I don't know if that changed though.

robably the social parts, but not the bad parts, most just turned a blimd eye to that.

And that is why 90 % of those sent to concentration camps in Poland till 1941 were sent there due to lists made by German minority ?

the last one is a German propoganda leaflet sent to Poles, maybe someone could translate?

Poles you are going to Monte Cassino. Germans also shouted thru loud speakers "Remember about Katyn, join us" etc.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

"Remember about Katyn, join us" etc.

That proves that NS Racial ideology was changed during the war to adopt to military, political and propaganda needs.

But I won't stop you from believing that it was all Hitler's fault because he was a superhero with the ability to clone himself and comitt all of this massacres himself to the horror of innocent and terririfed German people who only wanted to painted rainbows in their lives.

You know I'm not a blind neo nazi

And what is the source for the account you mentioned? And maybe those units involved were Selbschutz or SS Police units used in Operation 'Tannenberg'?

[Torquez]

Not to derail the topic:
Westerplatte murder.
http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20079

[tigre]

Hello to all ; bumping up.....no new info maybe, but good maps............................

The offensive battles against Cassino.

At the beginning of 1944 the battle front in the Italian theater of war ran roughly along the Rapido and Garigliano rivers. The German defensive positions on the eastern slopes of Monte Cairo and Monti Aurunci were expanded into the so-called “Gustav Line”. Further west, a second defensive front, the “Hitler Line,” was emerging (sketch 1).

At the end of 1943, General Alexander took command of the 15th Allied Army Group in Italy. The 8th Army deployed in the northern sector was under the command of General Leese, the 5th Army fighting in the south was under the command of General Clark. In the first days of January, the VI American Corps, which belonged to the 5th Army, was replaced by General Juin's French Expeditionary Corps, which was mainly composed of Algerian and Moroccan mountain troops. On January 21/22, the VI US Corps landed in the Anzio-Nettuno area and held a bridgehead there against severe German pressure. The structure of the forces on both sides and the course of the fighting in the bridgehead until mid-February can be seen in sketch 2.

The Allied plan called for the following operations at the beginning of January:
1. attack by the French Expeditionary Force over Monte Cairo, to cover the attack of the 5th Army on the right flank on the mountains north of the Liri valley.
2. Frontal thrust of the 2nd Army Corps through the Liri valley.
3. Advance of the 10th Army Corps over the Aurunci Mountains towards Pontecorvo in order to encompass the Hitler line from the south.

In this way, the 5th Army was supposed to tie up the German reserves on the Cassino and Garigliano fronts so that the Germans could not free up any forces in order to fight the VI Army Corps troops landing at Anzio-Nettuno.
The VI. AK was tasked with taking Rome and enabling the destruction of the German forces in the Cassino-Frosinone area.

According to the German plan, the Adriatic sector had to behave defensively, as did the Garigliano and Cassino fronts, while overtaking landings were to be intercepted and eliminated by a push against the sea.

Source: Die Angriffsschlachten gegen Cassino. Schuler, Ernst. ASMZ Allgemeine schweizerische Militärzeitschrift. Band (Jahr): 117 (1951). Heft 5

Cheers. Raúl M .

[tigre]

Hello to all ; more...........................

The offensive battles against Cassino.

Allied attacks in January.

The French Expeditionary Corps (CEF) set out on January 12 as the first corps of the 5th Army and took Monte Belvedere with the 2nd Moroccan Division and Monte Castellonc with the Algerian 3rd Division on January 26. The US II Corps also began the attack on January 15. The 34th Division passed north of Cassino and reached the monastery hill at a distance of 200 m, where it could no longer pass due to German artillery and gun fire.

The 36th Division attacked between Cassino and Liri and also became bogged down in German fire after crossing the Garigliano. Only a few tanks managed to go further.

The British Xth Corps did not begin its attack until January 17 (3 divisions on a 20 km front). It enjoyed initial success, but was stopped by a counterattack by strong German forces.

Causes of failure:
1. It was impossible to advance through the wide valley of the Liri until the heights on both sides were taken.
2. Supply difficulties were too great as the roads were under fire and in sight of the Germans.
3. Tanks without accompanying troops and supplies could not pass through suitable tank terrain.
4. Fighting in mountainous terrain and winter conditions would have required appropriate equipment. This was not available.

From February 4 to 10, the New Zealand Corps, which consisted of two divisions and was an army reserve, was deployed between Cassino and the Liri River in place of the 36th Division. But it was not successful either.

At the same time, the British Xth Corps attacked again in their sector. Again 3 divisions were deployed. This time there was no resounding success either. Meanwhile, the US II Corps was redeployed to the town of Cassino (36th Division), and on 10 February, after the New Zealand and British attack in the south had already failed, the II Corps attacked directly the city of Cassino. The corps became involved in street fighting and could no longer assert its superiority in aviation and artillery and also failed.

Source: Die Angriffsschlachten gegen Cassino. Schuler, Ernst. ASMZ Allgemeine schweizerische Militärzeitschrift. Band (Jahr): 117 (1951). Heft 5

Cheers. Raúl M .

Feliz Navidad - Feliz Natal - Frohe Weihnachten - Joyeux Noël - Merry Christmas - Wesołych Świąt!