Monte Casino

German Born · Post by **German Born** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:42 pm

I watched a documentary on this battle being told by the vets.I found some of the things amazing like the cease fire to collect dead and injured and how the English soldier saluted the Germans after allowing them to do this.Also the german sniper who was finally shot after killing many English.There was even a cigarette exchange between the enemy and chocolate.After this was over it was "back to square one"The vets were telling of the respect they had for the Germans and at times during "chit chat" they almost agreed that they were fighting the same enemy.At times the rooms of the church would be occupied by both the Germans and English at the same time as they were,nt aware of this.One German soldier told how if a man was placed at a location he would stay there.The English "Essex"soldiers lost about 75% but continued on.The English and Americans fighting the Germans said that it wasn,t a hatred fight between them but they were at war and that was it.I would recommend this documentary to all who have an interest in ww2 and I,m sure you,ll find it as informative as I did.

Erich · Post by **Erich** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:15 pm

by chance did you write down the narrator and the publisher of the film doc ? also where did you see this.......on a TV program or ? any special numbering off the film that we should know about

E `

John W. Howard · Post by **John W. Howard** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:46 pm

Hello German Born:
There are some excellent books written about the Italian Campaign in general, and Monte Cassino in particular. Most of the sources I know are in English, but almost all of them are very good and easy reading. Try some of them out!! Best wishes.

German Born · Post by **German Born** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:07 pm

Yes I have some information regarding this documentary and I must congratulate all who worked on it.It was shown on ABC Television narrated by Crawford Logan produced and directed by Ian Lilley.Thanks went to Monte Casino Tourism Office Association..Peter Scally and Karina Sparkes.Archive research was done by Judy Patterson.It is a Wark Clements&company production for Channel 4 television corporation.Also NDR Noddeutscher Runfunk.MM1V....These documentaries have a habit of finding me....or maybe I am looking for them...whatever the case may be once again I would like to say thanks for bringing them to us.

von_noobie · Post by **von_noobie** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:14 pm

Just actually watched the Documentory a few nights ago, It was really good.

Laurent Daniel · Post by **Laurent Daniel** » Fri May 05, 2006 1:46 am

Hi everybody,
I don't want in any case to criticize this documentary but just wish to remind to the members that the Monte Cassino battle was eventually won by the encirclement of the Monte Cassino by the CEFI French forces and by the final assault on Monte Cassino itself by the Polish forces.

So, I only regret that the Pole and French vets were not associated to that documentary that, consequently, is un-complete.

Torquez · Post by **Torquez** » Fri May 05, 2006 8:07 am

Monte Cassino operation was made by several troops from different nations, so there is sometimes a nationalistic pride in attributing the victory to one country. However the Polish units led by General Anders indeed pushed the hardest and were the ones to occupy the monestry(Polish 12th Podolian Uhlans Regiment )
I rather doubt they would act in a way comperable to English soldiers. To Germans Poles were creatures inferior to animals, and massive atrocities made in German occupied Poland certainly were known to Polish soldiers.
Such events perhaps took place in earlier battles, the last one however that ended in success was done by Polish forces with assistance of Moroccan and Indian forces.

pzrmeyer2 · Post by **pzrmeyer2** » Sat May 06, 2006 8:20 am

To Germans Poles were creatures inferior to animals, and massive atrocities made in German occupied Poland certainly were known to Polish soldiers.

never give up, Torqi, never give up....

btw, can you tell us which German leaders or soldiers at Monte Cassino considered their Polish opponents as "inferior to animals"?

sources please, not your own inferiority complex

Laurent Daniel · Post by **Laurent Daniel** » Sat May 06, 2006 8:39 am

pzrmeyer2 wrote:
To Germans Poles were creatures inferior to animals, and massive atrocities made in German occupied Poland certainly were known to Polish soldiers.
never give up, Torqi, never give up....

Why should he gives up, panzi?

Helmut Von Moltke · Post by **Helmut Von Moltke** » Sat May 06, 2006 11:52 pm

Laurent Daniel wrote:
pzrmeyer2 wrote:
To Germans Poles were creatures inferior to animals, and massive atrocities made in German occupied Poland certainly were known to Polish soldiers.
never give up, Torqi, never give up....
Why should he gives up, panzi?

well, sometimes his comments are not supported by evidence....

Alex Coles · Post by **Alex Coles** » Sun May 07, 2006 2:01 am

Well, hardly any of your posts, HvM, are supported with evidence

and of course hardly any of mine

Helmut Von Moltke · Post by **Helmut Von Moltke** » Sun May 07, 2006 2:02 am

well, 17th..... 11 year olds and 14 year olds are kids, kids are kids! kids dunno a lot about sources, evidence, despite my efforet.

Laurent Daniel · Post by **Laurent Daniel** » Sun May 07, 2006 2:09 am

Sorry, guys, I couldn't resist, take that as a joke.
My grandmother was used to say:
"When kids dunno, kids shut up"
Well, that was last century.

Torquez · Post by **Torquez** » Sun May 07, 2006 11:27 am

tw, can you tell us which German leaders or soldiers at Monte Cassino considered their Polish opponents as "inferior to animals"?

This was the ideology of their country at the time-National Socialism. Still supported by over 55% of Germans in 1947 according to polls made by American authorities in their occupation zone. It is not unreasnoble to assume many of German soldiers had similiar views in WW2. And as soldiers usually have more nationalistic attitude then the whole society it is possible that a far greater majority of them supported the view of their superior commander-Adolf Hitler to whom they made an oath of loyality.

As to units:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/ ... o_02.shtml

He commanded two armies. There was the British 8th Army, initially under Montgomery and, when he was removed to prepare for the invasion of Normandy, in the more stolid hands of General Sir Oliver Leese. And there was the US 5th Army, commanded by Lieutenant General Mark Clark, who was (not always wrongly) impatient of the British and their methods, and acutely conscious of his personal role as the standard-bearer of American arms in Europe.

To this already volatile mix were added Canadian troops, who were to distinguish themselves in the bloody battle for Ortona on the Adriatic coast; a French Expeditionary Corps, whose superb fighting quality is too often overlooked by Anglo-American historians; New Zealand and Indian divisions, both fighting bravely so far from home, and a Polish corps for which the struggle against the Germans was a matter of national honour.

It was not until May that the Allies at last brought their full might to bear on Cassino. They did it by moving much of the 8th Army from the Adriatic coast, while 5th Army shifted its weight to reinforce the Anzio beachhead, now under the command of Major General Lucian Truscott.

The new offensive, Operation Diadem, smashed through the neck of the Liri valley by sheer weight, and the Polish Corps took Monte Cassino.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3486805.stm

When the Poles finally entered the monastery, having spotted a tattered white flag flying above it, not a shot was fired.
Inside they found a handful of ragged German soldiers surrendering, three severely wounded young paratroopers, and many dead.
Someone played a medieval Polish bugle tune, the Krakow Hejnal, reducing battle-hardened soldiers to tears.
Overall, the Poles had suffered nearly 4,000 casualties, or about half of their men.
At first a pennant of the 12th Podolski Lancers Regiment was raised on the ruins. The next day it was replaced by a Polish flag and a Union Jack.

The Germans must surely have been shocked when those they believed inferior to animals won the battle !

Imad · Post by **Imad** » Sun May 07, 2006 5:27 pm

Well, actually, it's not as clear cut as that, Torquez. Monte Cassino actually fell because Kesselring had ordered a withdrawal from the Cassino area following the Canadian breakthrough in the Liri Valley, leaving only a rearguard to cover the withdrawal. Given the odds against them, the Fallschirmjaeger fought extremely well, as did the Poles and others and there was nothing "shocking" about the inevitable Allied victory, even if it was brought about by Polish troops. And anyway, there is no evidence that the Paratroopers treated their opponents like subhumans. On the contrary, great gallantry was shown by both sides.
Imad