what were the best waffen ss features????

[TimoWr]

M.H., it's not that they don't see the SS as "baddies". They see the SS as elite, best equipped, best trained, superior fighting "baddies" who, every single one of them, outclassed the Heer. Thats what the propaganda referred to did during and after the war.

[M.H.]

Yes, but what about today's people? In the US, Australia, the UK or elsewhere? Many WWII interested get interested into the german side starting with the SS (that is at least my impression), but they are hardly subjected to Nazi propaganda anymore...

[TimoWr]

I don't think you get the point: the myths surrounding the SS which were created by nazi propaganda during the war were picked up by post-war writers and continue to dominate the picture most people have of the SS.

[Reb]

17 SS

Read H. Meyer's history of 12 SS. You'll be surprised at how hard it was for them to get equipment.

In Normandy for example, no SS div (and the big ones were there, 1, 2, 9, 10, 12, 17) had more than one SPW bn. Yet at least three army divs had two or more: 21, 2 pz and Pz lehr with four!

Meyer noted that their delivery of Panthers was speeded up a bit - not because they were SS but because they excelled in some drills upon which such decisions were made.

SS Pz Divs answered to Guderian (Insp. Gen of Pz Troops) same as the Heer.

cheers
Reb

[Doktor Krollspell]

Hello M.H. et al.

Right or wrong, I think that the Waffen-SS has (partly) transcended reality and into mythology, and this process certainly started during the war with the NS propaganda machinery and it's focus on them and it has continued up to this day. I mean, military history is full of similar examples, for instance; how much better was Napoleon's Imperial Old Guard compared to a French Line Regiment from the same era and war, really? The Praetorians in Imperial Rome compared to an "ordinary" Legion? The Spartans in ancient Greece compared to a Athenian or Theban Phalanx? (the latter eventually beat the Spartans But still, what do people read about... the Spartan military way of life ) Then, in modern times in the USA you have the Marines and Airborn units with much popular focus on them but what about the regular US Army? Where's the legends, the myths, the movies...?

Apparently, humans (and nations) need their "elite", or idolized military units. A critical discussion and objective research must always be conducted but it's seems like fighting windmills when it comes to the popular status of these elite units. Still a good and critical discussion is always rewarding, and sometimes just plain entertaining!


Regards,

Krollspell

[M.H.]

You've got to love the philosophical discussions here on Feldgrau!

*puffs out smoke ring and scratches thinker beard*

[Christoph Awender]

What really is coming out in an international forum like this is that mainly specific countries have the same sterotype view of the Waffen-SS.

What I find disturbing is that they nearly without exception come with the exactly same arguments. These arguments are obviously all from the same kind of source which must be a couple of very well sold books in these countries.
The people argumenting obviously did not do any research for themselve which means never made the attempt to make a picture themselves. They rely on and parrot "facts" others say and wrote without looking into the background if it is really true.
I cannot remember having met someone who did some serious research with original material etc... who had this Waffen-SS "best and first attitude".
Many of their arguments can be dumped within seconds when you look behind the scenes.
The better training argument comes very often just from people which obviously never in their live saw an original training plan, schedule or regulation. Would they have done some research they would see that all regulations and training plan orders were used for both Heer and W-SS. From the dozens of regulations (e.g. Heeresdruckvorschriften) I have over 20% have the stamp of a W-SS school, replacement or field unit in them.
The actual daily schedules of veterans I collected did not show any different training methods or regulations.
No Waffen-SS veteran I interviewed told me something about a mysterious, high efficient training method which made them to supersoldiers. I am sure may people would be surprised how "normal" and similar to a modern military training they spent their recruitment time.

The better equipment argument which was also discussed several times here is also just parrotting old myths. Nobody ever was able to bring any kind of proof that W-SS units received best first or more of it. Doing some own research again shows that the main factor was the strategic and tactical situation and which units were planed for which operations. Of course Waffen-SS divisions were "thrown" around to spearhead operations or clear situations... like the comparable armoured formations of the Heer. If you take several snapshots in time you will see fully and excellent equipped Heer formations and at the bottom W-SS divisions and vice versa. Of course such divisions (Heer and W-SS) were filled up as soon as possible to be ready for new operations - this I understand as workhorse divisions.

I would just wish that people would be more critical towards things they read and use common sense to determine if something sounds reasonable or not.

\Christoph

[Sani116]

One thing confuses me gents. If the SS were not considered the elite by the regime/were not elite, how come they had such a variety of camo designs? If you look at modern armies - take that of the US - special forces tend to have their own camoflage patterns. Its something which makes them stand out against the rest, whilst also serving the purpose. And lets face it, splinter is good but Oakleaf is alot more effective.

[Christoph Awender]

One thing confuses me gents. If the SS were not considered the elite by the regime/were not elite, how come they had such a variety of camo designs? If you look at modern armies - take that of the US - special forces tend to have their own camoflage patterns. Its something which makes them stand out against the rest, whilst also serving the purpose. And lets face it, splinter is good but Oakleaf is alot more effective.

Sorry, but this sounds a little bit navie. I have no clue what having various camo designs has to do with being "better". Out of a strange reason some people think that the Waffen-SS outfit looks more cool so they must be elite.
The Heer had comparable the same number of units equipped with camo smocks and "experimental" uniforms you just don´t see them that often because there were millions more. The 126.Inf.Div. for example was euipped with the newest camo uniforms and that was just a standard Heer division. Why were they choosen? Because they were reorganising and sent to an area where they were thought usefull. As good as every division had its share of camo equipment.
Getting left over italian material for improvised camo uniforms has nothing to do with elite but with who has the responsibility over the area the cloth was found.
The soldiers and officials responsible for issuing and developing back then also had a different view of camo clothing than you have now.

\Christoph

[Sani116]

One thing confuses me gents. If the SS were not considered the elite by the regime/were not elite, how come they had such a variety of camo designs? If you look at modern armies - take that of the US - special forces tend to have their own camoflage patterns. Its something which makes them stand out against the rest, whilst also serving the purpose. And lets face it, splinter is good but Oakleaf is alot more effective.

Sorry, but this sounds a little bit navie. I have no clue what having various camo designs has to do with being "better". Out of a strange reason some people think that the Waffen-SS outfit looks more cool so they must be elite.
The Heer had comparable the same number of units equipped with camo smocks and "experimental" uniforms you just don´t see them that often because there were millions more. The 126.Inf.Div. for example was euipped with the newest camo uniforms and that was just a standard Heer division. Why were they choosen? Because they were reorganising and sent to an area where they were thought usefull. As good as every division had its share of camo equipment.
Getting left over italian material for improvised camo uniforms has nothing to do with elite but with who has the responsibility over the area the cloth was found.
The soldiers and officials responsible for issuing and developing back then also had a different view of camo clothing than you have now.

\Christoph

Wow there fella, there you go jumping down peoples necks again Chris. The fact is that the Waffen SS were issued with NUMEROUS different TYPES of cammo I.E. Oakleaf, palm, burred edge etc etc. My point is that the Heer only officially had Splinter tarn and later, Sumpftarn (tan and water) - therefore as a sign of the waffen SS's regarded "eliteness" they were given various types of camoflage patterns (not talking about clothing - clothing is a different matter and there were numerous field made garments that turned into a form of issue garment ala the camo field jacket and caps); In reference to the original question I do not believe there was much of a difference between the average SS unit and the average Wehrmacht unit in turms of bravery etc. However I strongly believe that they were considered by the Nazi regime to be the elite. And this could possibly have therefore reflected in their treatment to gucci new camo designs - designs were created as early as 1936 and obviously the SS wanted to "stand out" so I can see how you could argue that they were just designing a pattern to make themselves stand out from the Heer; but what about wartime patterns? You dont see the Heer playing around with so many varied patterns, why so were the waffen SS allowed to? Not perhaps because they were deemed to be an elitist unit that would require specialist patterns more-so than the Heer?
There are two sides to the coin Christoph, and by taking my thoughts out of context and out-right rejecting them, is not seeing those two sides.

[Christoph Awender]

Then you have to reread the original thread. The question in this thread was never if they were considered to be elite. The original poster claimed that they were better and asked why. A big difference which was not influenced by various camo types.

\Christoph

[Sani116]

Then you have to reread the original thread. The question in this thread was never if they were considered to be elite. The original poster claimed that they were better and asked why. A big difference which was not influenced by various camo types.

\Christoph

Ok, another question (I must apologise, for these questions must greatly annoy you), did the various camoflage designs make the Waffen SS soldiers more efficient - therefore contributing to their reputation as the "elite"? I know it sounds far-fetched, but they must have been developing the various patterns for a reason, and if you look through "Wenn alle brüder schwegen" you will see that the majority of soldiers are wearing camo smocks etc, it would be interesting to see if Waffen SS camoflage designs were more effective than Heer designs. An enemy which can conceal himself is a very deadly enemy, who knows, perhaps the camoflage designs were effective enough to give the Waffen SS an edge over its enemy? More so than the Heer. And thus reflected well on their reputation as better fighters.


It would be interesting to hear other peoples thoughts on this.
Tom.

[Christoph Awender]

Well, yes I hope someone will find an appropriate answer to this desperate attempt.

[pzrmeyer2]

People glorify the SS because they see so much Propaganda. Infact, too much.

wonder why you chose an SS username...

the myths surrounding the SS which were created by nazi propaganda during the war were picked up by post-war writers and continue to dominate the picture most people have of the SS.

thats why all your years of research are about the SS and SS individuals

What I find disturbing is that they nearly without exception come with the exactly same arguments. These arguments are obviously all from the same kind of source which must be a couple of very well sold books in these countries.
The people argumenting obviously did not do any research for themselve which means never made the attempt to make a picture themselves. They rely on and parrot "facts" others say and wrote without looking into the background if it is really true

tell us, Mr All-knowing nuanced historian, Der Grosste Historiker Aller Zeiten, GROHAZ, what IS this mysterious single source that all of us unsophisticated, non-Austrian reservists all go to? I'm surprised in all of your detective research, you haven't stumbled across it.

While you're at it, tell us since the Waffen SS obvuiosly sucked, what ARE the great elite units in your mind. Does any unit qualify?

Finally, why not lock this thread, hell, lets lock the entire SS forum, this website's most popular, since it is all based on myths and lies.
I wonder, maybe since the forum already has Holocaust denial forbidden, about the same for WaffenSS denial? I know who I'd nominate...

[Christoph Awender]

tell us, Mr All-knowing nuanced historian, Der Grosste Historiker Aller Zeiten, GROHAZ, what IS this mysterious single source that all of us unsophisticated, non-Austrian reservists all go to? I'm surprised in all of your detective research, you haven't stumbled across it.

Well, I am mostly using first hand accounts, original KTB´s, veteran memoirs and literature from reliable historians. Naturally all in german which should answer your question why I did not stumble across your sources. But judging by what members like you know about the Waffen-SS and reviews of many others these sources are more than questionable. And there are many especially in english.

And what about the cheap shots about the Austrian military? I am no soldier and I am not proud to be forced to go to manouvers and to be called up from time to time. I think all members now know that I am the military loser and you the big elite warrior. The provocation level of your ridiculous posts about the Austrian army is 0. It is not relevant if it comes to military history.

While you're at it, tell us since the Waffen SS obvuiosly sucked, what ARE the great elite units in your mind. Does any unit qualify?

I tell you now in this thread for the third time that I never said the "SS sucks". I explained several times to you that the workhorse divisions of the Waffen-SS were as efficient and as good formations as their Heer counterparts. And the german forces were very efficient. That you obviously ignore this for the third time in this thread now shows that you do not have any arguments to back up your Waffen-SS best of all oppinion.

Finally, why not lock this thread, hell, lets lock the entire SS forum, this website's most popular, since it is all based on myths and lies.
I wonder, maybe since the forum already has Holocaust denial forbidden, about the same for WaffenSS denial? I know who I'd nominate...

wow.. in one thing you are really elite. Making a fool out of yourself.
\Christoph